Eden Kink - Misconceptions in BDSM June 15, 2011 8 PM EST

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Eden Kink - Misconceptions in BDSM June 15, 2011 8 PM EST

Redboxbaby Redboxbaby
Dang, dang, dang! Always an hour or so late and a dollar short! Dangit.
06/15/2011
Redboxbaby Redboxbaby
Quote:
Originally posted by Serenesub
It's not. I know several people that are the same way. Myself included I don't have a safeword either and have no desire for one. I know he's not going to go beyond what I can take because his limits are the same as mine..somewhere along ...
After reading through the thread, I was starting to feel weird that we have never had a safeword and that maybe we needed to have a chit-chat about adopting a one; but then I happen upon your post and you say exactly what is on my heart when it comes to this subject!

Here, here!
06/15/2011
Wondermom Wondermom
I want to say sorry if I offended anyone with my earlier comment about safewords, I am still learning and navigating this stuff and should have chosen my words more wisely.

Talking about it with my husband I see merits in both sides, so I think if it works for you then kudos
06/15/2011
P'Gell P'Gell
Quote:
Originally posted by VieuxCarre
Can you pm them to me for me to include in the discussion?
I am so sorry, VC. I got caught up with something with The Man (a friend of his died suddenly and he needed me last evening) and totally forgot.

I feel bad. I missed the forum.
06/16/2011
P'Gell P'Gell
I did want to add, in case anyone was still interested, one more misconception, that I didn't get to send to VC in advance.

All BDSM players have deep seated psychological issues. And if they get these issues "treated" they will no longer feel the need to engage in BDSM. You hear this one a LOT in therapy circles, mostly because therapists see so much actual abuse, and some are hypersensitive to ANYTHING that might involve impact play, humiliation etc to ever think that sometimes it isn't a manifestation of trauma.

That's why, if you play hard, and do want to get therapy for any reason, you want to sound out a therapist who is not going to jump to conclusions. I've had therapists who have tried to convince me I was "battered" and I think they totally missed the point. The thing is, most of these people are so entrenched in the "everybody is a victim and it's my job to fix them" attitude, that I doubt these people can be used for therapy with anyone with Kink Sensibilities.

HINT: If your therapist has a "A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle" poster on her wall, bumper sticker or mug RUN do not walk out of that office.
06/16/2011
P'Gell P'Gell
I did want to add, in case anyone was still interested, one more misconception, that I didn't get to send to VC in advance.

All BDSM players have deep seated psychological issues. And if they get these issues "treated" they will no longer feel the need to engage in BDSM. You hear this one a LOT in therapy circles, mostly because therapists see so much actual abuse, and some are hypersensitive to ANYTHING that might involve impact play, humiliation etc to ever think that sometimes it isn't a manifestation of trauma.

That's why, if you play hard, and do want to get therapy for any reason, you want to sound out a therapist who is not going to jump to conclusions. I've had therapists who have tried to convince me I was "battered" and I think they totally missed the point. The thing is, most of these people are so entrenched in the "everybody is a victim and it's my job to fix them" attitude, that I doubt these people can be used for therapy with anyone with Kink Sensibilities.

HINT: If your therapist has a "A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle" poster on her wall, bumper sticker or mug RUN do not walk out of that office.
06/16/2011
Petite Valentine Petite Valentine
Quote:
Originally posted by Sir
Well, tonight's discussion was technically about misconceptions, not about me being a sadist. So what I was discussing was kind of irrelevant and spur of the moment. What exactly are you not getting? Maybe I can help out.
Sorry, I ended up logging off shortly after posting so I didn't see your reply right away.

Reading through the comments last night, a number of them offered examples of misconceptions, but didn't really delve into why they were misconceptions. As someone on the outside looking in, why something was a misconception (just as an example, "subs have low self-esteem") wasn't immediately clear. I thought your remark (and the conversation with Red) offered more insight which is why I zeroed in on it.

I realize that submissives have a great deal of control. Not just because of safe words, but because they are granting permission to dominants to indulge their desires. And two consenting adults may play however they like. The road bumps in my brain come when that play in unending (24/7) and involves behavior that seems extreme*. The question in my brain switches from could they? to should they?

Forgive the crappy (CRAPPY!) metaphor (I'm vanilla, it's the best I can do), but take Chili's Chocolate Chip Paradise Pie (1,600 cal, total fat 78g, total carbs 215g) as an example. I would and could eat it as often as I like, and it would feel damn good going down. But should I? Absolutely not. The overall effect on my being would be disasterous. Why is giving in to the impulse to control / strike / humiliate or be controlled / struck / humiliated less damaging?

Is it even possible to explain why embracing sadism or participating in the lifestyle 24/7 is a positive thing to someone outside of the lifestyle?

* admittedly, everyone's idea of extreme is different
06/16/2011
P'Gell P'Gell
Quote:
Originally posted by Petite Valentine
Sorry, I ended up logging off shortly after posting so I didn't see your reply right away.

Reading through the comments last night, a number of them offered examples of misconceptions, but didn't really delve into why they were ...
Maybe I can address this, PV, then Sir can when he returns. You said: "Why is giving in to the impulse to control / strike / humiliate or be controlled / struck / humiliated less damaging?"

It isn't just an "impulse" to a lot of us. Its a need. Not just a desire. A necessity. Can everyone who plays Hard "control" their desires? Probably some, probably most. But, if the play is 100% consensual, why should we?

You asked if is possible to explain the Lifestyle to someone who isn't involved? Maybe it can be explained to some, probably not to others.

There are things I am not into, but I don't think the people who engage in them are going to end in "disaster" if they are going into it with eyes open and while being safe, sane and while given consent.
06/16/2011
Petite Valentine Petite Valentine
Quote:
Originally posted by P'Gell
Maybe I can address this, PV, then Sir can when he returns. You said: "Why is giving in to the impulse to control / strike / humiliate or be controlled / struck / humiliated less damaging?"

It isn't just an "impulse" to ...
Hi P'Gell, the question is for anyone and everyone who wishes to respond.

"But, if the play is 100% consensual, why should we?"

One part of me agrees with this - what consenting adults do is their own business. However viewing some of the hard play my knee-jerk reaction is that the "need" has unhealthy origins. I don't want to say "those types of needs are not normal" — nothing in this world is normal — but they are needs I do not understand.
06/16/2011
Wondermom Wondermom
Quote:
Originally posted by Petite Valentine
Hi P'Gell, the question is for anyone and everyone who wishes to respond.

"But, if the play is 100% consensual, why should we?"

One part of me agrees with this - what consenting adults do is their own business. However ...
there are plenty of needs in the vanilla world I don't understand either, I'm of the "whatever makes you happy" camp
06/16/2011
Petite Valentine Petite Valentine
Quote:
Originally posted by Wondermom
there are plenty of needs in the vanilla world I don't understand either, I'm of the "whatever makes you happy" camp
What would you consider a vanilla need?

I guess my point is, if someone wants to have sex on rose petals with nothing but white candles to light the room, it's not a turn on for me, but I understand that they find it romantic. If however, someone wishes to be caned, I'm lost. I associate caning with judicial punishment in south-east Asia, not romance.
06/16/2011
That Man from Mars That Man from Mars
I'm probably going to be the bad guy, but I wanted to say something to Petite Valentine.
This is my perspective, and it's what I've learned during the course of many, many years studying psychology, specifically in the field of human sexuality.

There is a very, very, very good chance that the need for the extremes brought by BDSM play/lifestyle are caused by some form or another of psychological trauma. Most people don't want to hear that if they're involved in BDSM. Most people don't like the idea that there's a 'problem' with them, which brings about the needs/behaviors associated with BDSM. But it doesn't make it less true.

I have spent most of my life involved in BDSM. My own brand of past trauma and experiences in the world are what caused me to thoroughly delve into studying human sexuality, and I cannot with a good conscious say that any and all studies I have seen/read/heard of did not potently indicate the needs/desires for BDSM play/lifestyle are directly related to psychological trauma-- often, but not always, sexual.

I cannot say that this is always the case, because to do so I'd have to analyze every case. But I can say this is substantially often the case.

I by no means wish to offend or insult anyone present, but I feel it should be said because it is honest, and I think it is right to share this bit of information. I do suggest if you have any further curiosities to research BDSM and the psychology involved.

On a final note, I'm perfectly happy with being in my chosen lifestyle. I am comfortable and pleased by it, regardless as to why I need it in my life.
06/16/2011
Wondermom Wondermom
Quote:
Originally posted by Petite Valentine
What would you consider a vanilla need?

I guess my point is, if someone wants to have sex on rose petals with nothing but white candles to light the room, it's not a turn on for me, but I understand that they find it romantic. If however, ...
some people feel the NEED to work out every day, or can't bear the thought of not wearing make up. I don't understand it but if it makes them happy its not hurting me, so if someone feels the need to be spanked once a week or whipped, if its not hurting you why would you care why they want it or if its romantic. Sex and pleasure is not just about romance.
06/16/2011
Antipova Antipova
I just got back to read everything, and I really appreciate a lot of the thoughts that were brought to light in this discussion. Good topic, VC!
06/16/2011
Sir Sir
Quote:
Originally posted by Petite Valentine
Sorry, I ended up logging off shortly after posting so I didn't see your reply right away.

Reading through the comments last night, a number of them offered examples of misconceptions, but didn't really delve into why they were ...
It's a positive, and good, thing to those participating because it's what fills our needs and makes us happy. Who cares about what others think I should do? Would you like it if someone told you, using the ice cream example, that you shouldn't eat it, even if they felt they were being right? It's not their right to tell you what you should and should not do, just as it's no one else's right to tell me and other people involved in bdsm what we should/shouldn't do.

All participating parties are enjoying it, let's assume that. If we're all enjoying it and we are all in agreement with what is happening, why should it not be done? You seem to think of bdsm in terms of something much more extreme than it is. No one is dying, and no one is being hurt beyond repair. It's all pleasure and for satisfaction, as well as to be simply who we are. That's not to say that it's simply sexual, no. It's hardly sexual. It's an internalized need.

I cannot tell you why such things are misconceptions. I am not uneducated or ignorant to such things to be able to understand the reasoning for people having these misled misconceptions. I think that your question as to why they are misconceptions in the first place would be better asked to those who have the misconceptions themselves, as opposed to the people in the bdsm scene (like VieuxCarre, P'Gell, myself, and many others) who are trying to explain how those misconceptions are misled and wrong.

I hope that this made sense! I'm just trying to answer you completely and I am not sure if I am helping.
06/16/2011
Sir Sir
Quote:
Originally posted by Petite Valentine
What would you consider a vanilla need?

I guess my point is, if someone wants to have sex on rose petals with nothing but white candles to light the room, it's not a turn on for me, but I understand that they find it romantic. If however, ...
What's the difference between caning and candles? You do know that wax play is quite common in the bdsm community, correct? And you do know that roses have thorns? So what's so different about them? Maybe they do not appear the same on the surface, but a pleasure is a pleasure.

I find it extremely romantic, hot, alluring, sexy, to hold a riding crop under someone's chin and call them a slut. Others' idea of sexy is putting on lingerie and dancing. It's just how our mind interprets different settings, different moods. We all have different likes and dislikes.

Just because you don't understand it doesn't make it wrong. People still, to this day, do not understand homosexuality. Does that make it wrong? No. And on that note, it's not really a choice, what we enjoy as opposed to what we don't.
06/16/2011
sexyintexas sexyintexas
Quote:
Originally posted by Sir
It's a positive, and good, thing to those participating because it's what fills our needs and makes us happy. Who cares about what others think I should do? Would you like it if someone told you, using the ice cream example, that you ...
Couldn't have said this better myself. I have had friends ask what it is that I find luring me into this and I really can't answer that. It isn't one aspect of it, it is everything about it. Putting complete trust in another person who understands my needs and desires and I his.

And in response to That Man From Mars, you may be right to some extent with some people but it's unfair to think that because this may have been some peoples experience that it has been all of ours. I for one had a great childhood, loving parents who did not abuse me and have never been in an abusive relationship. It is true though that people who have been abused tend to gravitate toward abusers. Abusers however are into causing pain to another person for reasons that are far from my reasons for living this lifestyle.

I went into this eyes wide open and very willing. The thought now of being in a relationship of any other kind seems pretty mundane.
06/16/2011
Wondermom Wondermom
I am drawn to pain because I am a life long self injurer in one way or another, some way or another I have been using pain for pleasure most of my life, before I even knew BDSM existed.

I grew up in a semi-strict army household, I was spanked and sometimes with a thick wooden paddle, but it was there that I learned it didn't hurt me. One time I even split the paddle into 3 pieces because my butt was so strong, and it still didn't hurt. It was then my parents gave up on spanking. I was never beaten, and while I am a rape survivor it has nothing to do with why I like kink.
06/16/2011
sexyintexas sexyintexas
Trying not to sound Jerry McGuire-ish....It completes me
06/16/2011
Petite Valentine Petite Valentine
Quote:
Originally posted by Sir
It's a positive, and good, thing to those participating because it's what fills our needs and makes us happy. Who cares about what others think I should do? Would you like it if someone told you, using the ice cream example, that you ...
Let me start by saying thank you, to everyone, for your comments. I find all of this helpful. It's late and my thoughts are all over the place, so now is not the time to compose responses, but rest assured I am contemplating all that has been said.
06/16/2011
Dusk Dusk
I'm coming in really late, but I wanted to comment on something that was said above about kinksters having psychological issues that perhaps they don't want to see. I would say, consider which came first. I've been kinky since I was at least 5 years old, back when I was still a rather innnocent child and hadn't developed any of the deep-set psych issues I might consider that I have today. However, I think a lot of the time kinky folks can take a while to find a healthy relationship and play method, and getting involved with the wrong people and activities can cause us to have deep-set emotional problems that people then blame for us being kinky. But it doesn't really work that way.

Also, for anyone interested, I wrote an article on Consent for the edencommunityclubs page a few weeks ago. Check it out if you haven't read it yet!
06/19/2011
PunkyB PunkyB
Quote:
Originally posted by Petite Valentine
Sorry, I ended up logging off shortly after posting so I didn't see your reply right away.

Reading through the comments last night, a number of them offered examples of misconceptions, but didn't really delve into why they were ...
I would like to add on to what others are saying... I totally agree that to each their own.

Also I think that trying to deny the needs that we have can have a negative effect. I have suffered with depression for a long time and now that I am accepting of my needs and taking care of them I am much more balanced as a person. So embracing that has been very positive thing.
06/19/2011
P'Gell P'Gell
Quote:
Originally posted by Petite Valentine
Hi P'Gell, the question is for anyone and everyone who wishes to respond.

"But, if the play is 100% consensual, why should we?"

One part of me agrees with this - what consenting adults do is their own business. However ...
I'm a little confused. Are you saying people who enjoy intense sensation (call it B&D, S&M, impact play, spanking, clamping, wax play or whatever) desires always stem from "unhealthy origins?" You are basing this on what research? Or just the fact that you, personally, wouldn't want to do it? Or do you know people in The Lifestyle and all of them are "unhealthy?"

Not understanding something is one thing, I understand. But I think making the jump that something you, personally, don't enjoy is "unhealthy" is a bit of a limited, and rather judgmental opinion.

You said However viewing some of the hard play May I ask, where did you view, what you refer to as "Hard Play?" Did you participate yourself? Was it a DVD or online and you were a passive observer? Was it in a Play Club? Just wondering where you were exposed to something that would cause you to assume something many healthy people enjoy is "from unhealthy origins."

I'm asking because I'm truly interested. I don't get (understand) a lot of "do it the same way every time vanilla play" (and I'm probably wrong about that) but I don't judge the "origins" of the desires of those who are less sexually adventurous than I.

I simply understand they have less need for sensation, and they don't need or want to or lack the fire to explore as much as I do. If they did, they'd have a different opinion and a different kind of sex life. But, I don't think they are inherently "unhealthy" just because their sex lives very greatly from mine.

Do you see where I am coming from? There's no "one way" to have sex, and no accounting for taste.

Safe, sane and consensual and IMO, you can't go wrong.
06/20/2011
P'Gell P'Gell
Quote:
Originally posted by Sir
It's a positive, and good, thing to those participating because it's what fills our needs and makes us happy. Who cares about what others think I should do? Would you like it if someone told you, using the ice cream example, that you ...
Thank you! (A little flogger smilie would go a long way right now. )
06/20/2011
P'Gell P'Gell
Quote:
Originally posted by That Man from Mars
I'm probably going to be the bad guy, but I wanted to say something to Petite Valentine.
This is my perspective, and it's what I've learned during the course of many, many years studying psychology, specifically in the field of human ...
As for the "psychological perspective" I have a degree, A Bachelor of Science, in Psychology, also. For the most part, and I think you'd agree an amount of of what we were taught in University about Psychology is utter bullshit and only used to make those with PhDs a good deal of money trying to convince people they have "issues" even when those issues do not cause them distress or problems.

Of course, therapy helps many and has certainly helped me. However, saying that, "You have internal issues that you don't want admit to, I know." is a bit presumptuous, don't you think? Yeah, I've studied human sexuality, and the low down on Kink is usually pretty awful, poorly studied and usually only done with small groups of people who sought help for things that were giving them great anguish or who had other issues. Also, most research, what little there is, is slanted and done on very small groups of people, often with the researcher going IN to the study with a certain outcome in mind, and if you know Psychology, you know FEW researchers go into a study with an opinion and accept anything other than what they wanted to see.

If the whole "You're damaged that's why you need kink" were true, than wouldn't a good stretch of therapy CURE us of wanting Kink? If the therapist did his or her job? I've been in therapy, (and, of course, what little I told her about Kink was soundly scorned and told was part of my "neurosis") But, she assumes she did a good job, I do feel released from any past trauma, it no longer haunts me or even bothers me......and I still like Kink and am even more interested and enjoy it with less (let's say NO) guilt or worry than before.

If it was "due to trauma" (or "unhealthy origins") wouldn't a good therapist have "cured" me of it?

Nah, I think it may be as hardwired as many other things. I think it has more to do with the way an individual processes sensation, with how their individual endorphin and adrenaline, and nor-epinephrine and other neurotransmitter responses work, even how imaginative they may be and how much they value high level sensation experiences, among other things.

It is interesting to ponder, but I don't worry about it too much anymore.
06/20/2011
Petite Valentine Petite Valentine
Let me take this question by question...

I'm a little confused. Are you saying people who enjoy intense sensation (call it B&D, S&M, impact play, spanking, clamping, wax play or whatever) desires always stem from "unhealthy origins?"

No, not at all. I was trying to indicate that I was talking about extreme forms of play, though looking at many of the responses I may have inadvertently given the impression that I think all BDSM is a form of slow, painful death, which is not what I think all.

You are basing this on what research? Or just the fact that you, personally, wouldn't want to do it? Or do you know people in The Lifestyle and all of them are "unhealthy?"

None of the above. I know little about it and hoped to learn more from this thread. I find some of it hot. I once had a friend who was really into BDSM, and if I'm being honest, I think I'm being fair when I say she was emotionally unstable. But I never thought it stemmed from her BDSM involvement. Now, whether it contributed to her BDSM desires, I don't know.

Not understanding something is one thing, I understand. But I think making the jump that something you, personally, don't enjoy is "unhealthy" is a bit of a limited, and rather judgmental opinion.

And this was what I was trying to avoid. My whole point is I don't want to be judgmental — or I think a better word is 'alarmed' — even if I don't like the play. For example, if someone is into golden showers, to me that is gross, I wouldn't do it for a million bucks. However, it doesn't alarm me. I don't want to call the cops or a crisis counselor, I just want nothing to do with it. However, if someone is being beaten to the point of bruising or bleeding, something in my head says, intervene, help that person. Even if I know they want/asked for it, it just seems too damaging.

Same thing for the person who wishes to inflict the pain. When someone's desires to hurt go way past the average, I begin to wonder what's going on in their brain. If I'm being honest, it automatically makes them creepy. Societal conditioning tells me sadism is most often present in rapists, murderers, drug gangs, brutal dictators and worse, and the dictionary tells me sadists are 'perverse' and 'corrupt' individuals. I'm trying to keep an open mind, but understand, there is a lot of societal pressure to reject it outright.

You said However viewing some of the hard play May I ask, where did you view, what you refer to as "Hard Play?" Did you participate yourself? Was it a DVD or online and you were a passive observer? Was it in a Play Club? Just wondering where you were exposed to something that would cause you to assume something many healthy people enjoy is "from unhealthy origins."

My exposure is mostly second-hand (from friends who go to clubs), or things I read or see on the internet/forums. I know enough about myself to say I would be extremely uncomfortable in a play club, even if the play was vanilla.

I'm asking because I'm truly interested. I don't get (understand) a lot of "do it the same way every time vanilla play" (and I'm probably wrong about that) but I don't judge the "origins" of the desires of those who are less sexually adventurous than I.

A complete lack of imagination doesn't make sense to me either. You may not judge the origins, but I think that's because a lack of creativity doesn't alarm you, yes? You simply want nothing to do with it.

I simply understand they have less need for sensation, and they don't need or want to or lack the fire to explore as much as I do. If they did, they'd have a different opinion and a different kind of sex life. But, I don't think they are inherently "unhealthy" just because their sex lives very greatly from mine.

You understand 'vanillas' have a need for less sensation. I could reverse that and say BDSM players have a need for more sensation — which I do understand. But what about extremes? If someone confided to you that she thought sex was for procreation only and she never enjoyed it, would you consider that as healthy as do-it-the-same-way-eve ry-time-vanilla play?

I'm not challenging anyone's desires, nor do I mean to imply they are in any way wrong. I'm not asking, nor do I expect, anyone to justify their choices to me. My goal is to understand the drive behind the choices better, so that I have a less-alarmed (ideally, neutral) reaction to some of the play which, for now, brings on an admittedly knee-jerk reaction of that's wrong / dangerous / unhealthy / negative adjective of your choice.

(That was a lot of words, I wish EF's forum had a 'preview' feature for posts. )
06/20/2011
PunkyB PunkyB
Quote:
Originally posted by Petite Valentine
Let me take this question by question...

I'm a little confused. Are you saying people who enjoy intense sensation (call it B&D, S&M, impact play, spanking, clamping, wax play or whatever) desires always stem from "unhealthy ...
Im just wondering if you are seriously interested in BDSM...You said you find some of it hot... Is this need to understand and explain why steming from that. Most people who arent into it either accept it as something that they dont understand and ignore it or are disgusted with it and pretend it isnt a reality *personal reactions from vanilla people I have interacted with*
06/20/2011
Petite Valentine Petite Valentine
Quote:
Originally posted by PunkyB
Im just wondering if you are seriously interested in BDSM...You said you find some of it hot... Is this need to understand and explain why steming from that. Most people who arent into it either accept it as something that they dont understand and ...
I think my quest for understanding is a by-product of spending more time on the EF forum (where BDSM as a subject and lifestyle is quite popular) and reading stories which involve it (thanks to the Naked Reader BC). The EF forums are very positive towards BDSM play, yet stuff that is mentioned casually sometimes sparks an omg wtf! in my brain. I could ignore it, or worse, be disgusted by it, but when it comes from members who are well-spoken, positive, helpful contributors — people I like — I'd rather understand why they enjoy these things. My curiosity is piqued.

Is it piqued because I'm seriously interested? No, I don't think I am. The stuff I find hot is at the very, very tame end of the BDSM spectrum (wrist/ankle restraints, very light spanking), whereas most of my questions are about the mindset of those at the extreme end. The area in-between is stuff I have no interest in, but it doesn't worry or disgust me.
06/20/2011
Wondermom Wondermom
Quote:
Originally posted by Petite Valentine
Let me take this question by question...

I'm a little confused. Are you saying people who enjoy intense sensation (call it B&D, S&M, impact play, spanking, clamping, wax play or whatever) desires always stem from "unhealthy ...
on the bruising aspect, here is a great video from Nina Hartley. While the bruises might be alarming, or the bite marks etc if they consented to it and enjoyed it, those marks do not alarm them like they do you. Also from a person who bruises extremely easily, my 5yr old son can give me a bruise easily so even vanilla sex can cause bruising on me.
06/20/2011
Serenesub Serenesub
Quote:
Originally posted by Petite Valentine
Let me take this question by question...

I'm a little confused. Are you saying people who enjoy intense sensation (call it B&D, S&M, impact play, spanking, clamping, wax play or whatever) desires always stem from "unhealthy ...
For me, I have no past trauma, no abuse, nothing of the sort. And yet, I crave the more extreme play. I'm fairly balanced. Everybody has parts that become unbalanced sometimes, it's just the way it is. However, for the most part everybody I personally know in the BDSM lifestyle are healthy, balanced individuals. Some of them were abused in their younger years, but while that is true for MOST of them they also showed the submissive or dominant tendencies before the age they were abused at. They enjoyed pain before that happened, it was just a horrible and unfortunate chapter in their life.


I personally am one of the people you'd want to save. I have a friend who is just like me, I have another who enjoys things even further up the extreme scale. But not one of us wants to be saved. We'd probably be upset if you tried to help and stop things.

Your view point isn't that rare. That's why most of us don't tell people in our lives what we're into. It's not a shame thing, it's worrying about what others are going to think, how they're going to treat us. Some people have actually lost their jobs and their children because people didn't understand their lifestyle. There are even people who are IN the lifestyle that have your viewpoint. They see all bruises, and everybody on the more extreme end of the play scale as wrong. They see them as abused, even if it's consensual they tell the sub they are abused and will always be abused because they are victims and need to realize what is happening. I've seen it. I've listened to subs cry because they're told these things. So a lot of people keep quiet.

The thing is, if you are uncomfortable with something you will most likely always be uncomfortable with it. But, that means you don't engage in it. I don't believe that anybody she be judged or condemned for these things. There are people that only like missionary style sex... there are people that need to be hurt in order to orgasm. It's just the way we're wired. I personally am absolutely bored to death with vanilla sex. It does nothing for me at all. But that doesn't mean others shouldn't do it.

When I have sex my pain and pleasure sensors get a little foggy. I can be bitten to the point of a small bruise and not even feel it. But I enjoy it. I need the dominance my owner has over me in day to day life and I need it in the bedroom. If I am in control I don't enjoy sex. If I don't have some pain mixed into things I don't enjoy it. It can be as little as pulling hair and spanking or as big as flogging and caning. When I'm hurt to the point of bruising it's like a release. I let go of everything. Does it hurt? Somewhat, but I like it. It's almost euphoric. Depending on the implement causing the bruise (teeth, paddle, etc) I can do anything from going completely passive and limp to struggling and squealing. But in that struggling and squealing is a release too.

I enjoy the bruises. I like looking down and knowing that I am his, and having reminders of so much pleasure and such a good night. I will absolutely sit and poke a bruise and smile. I can take pain. I enjoy the pain. I agreed it, I ask for it. For somebody like me, it is just another need like water, air, and food. Without it I get antsy, I get uncomfortable and restless. It really is a need. And unless you have that need it is almost impossible to explain or understand. If somebody didn't need air to breathe other than saying "I need it to live it keeps me going" there is no way to explain to that person because they themselves do not need it.

Social conditioning is fine. But when you(using you as a general term) were a child you were also taught that Santa Clause and the Easter bunny was real, and that stealing was wrong no matter what. As you grow up you learn that things aren't so black and white. There really isn't a Santa Clause or Easter bunny. You learn that sometimes stealing a loaf of bread to feed your children is the only option you have. Every single thing in the world has more than one side to it. Yes, it takes time to overcome that thinking... but it is wrong thinking. There are varying degrees of sadism just as there are varying degrees of submission. A pure sadist has no emotion and could absolutely kill somebody with no second thought. There are some dominants who say they are pure sadists but they aren't. They may be as close as they come without crossing that line, but they are not the same. There are submissives who cannot function without a dominant. There are some that when they are unowned run their lives into the ground and sometimes end up dead, sometimes they just can't get their shit together. But, again they are rare. You cannot take a small percentage of any group and apply it to the whole population of said group.


As far as being creepy? There are men and women, submissives and dominants in this lifestyle that are some of the nicest people you will ever meet. There are some of them that go out of their way to help anybody they can. You are categorizing them as creepy because you don't understand them. My owner will hurt me, absolutely. But, he is also one of the softest, sweetest men I have ever met. Looking from the outside in...if you don't understand things... it would look creepy. But so does vanilla life if all you've ever known is another way of life. I'm glad you're trying to learn and get rid of social stigma if only on how you see this. But, until you let go of that mindset it wont happen because we will always be creepy to you and seeing beyond that is hard. You don't know for sure what goes on in everybody's bedroom. You may have people you know that are into the harder BDSM that have never told you. If you randomly met me, you would have no idea unless I told you. If you've known somebody for 20+ years and suddenly found out that they liked to bruise and spank their partners would you find them creepy or would you just see them as your friend still?

I used to think that all subs were doormats, that nobody would ever control me and continue living. I used to think that dominants were abusive bastards. Until I had a boyfriend suggest it. And now? I am happier than I have ever been in my life. Some of the people in this lifestyle are my best friends that I would not have met if I had kept my views. I thought that way because I did not understand. Asking questions and reading is good. But, in order to completely erase that thinking I personally think that this lifestyle needs to be experienced or at least closely viewed via somebody deep into it that can help you understand. There is nothing creepy about it once you're in it. It's just day to day life.
06/21/2011
Total posts: 300
Unique posters: 23