Sex Shop I (Don't) Trust--Why I Can't Support the Campaign

Hear Hear Maria!

I just wanted to jump in to say that I don't hate Eden Fantasys, as it was the first place to show me that it's possible to review sex toys (though I'm reviewing sex toys from another company) and that it's possible to ask questions of others without feeling stupid, but I do want to say that I've been following AAG for years - she's the one who led me to Eden Fantasys. She's the one who talked me into an excellent vibrator (still my favorite), and she's the first person I think of whenever I think of Eden Fantasys. I am absolutely stunned at the treatment she has received from this website, which pushes itself off as an elegant and friendly website. If you can't treat your employees good, how can your customers know that you can treat them good?

As head of the blogger calendar project AAG referenced, I certainly cannot support this campaign either. Having seen very personally the way the owner, Fred, operates has left me with a bad taste in my mouth. When he committed to our project, he essentially did so without having a good handle on cost. A smart businessman would have set a cap at the start, he didn't, he jumped in eagerly only to come back with a vastly different and much less generous offer when he got costing and a list of demands which we considered odd and unacceptable.

He came back to us eventually offering us a sum of money and saying how he felt things had gotten lost in translation and attempting to scapegoat AAG. AAG had been nothing but STELLAR throughout this project. We realized she was in a difficult position and never did anyone involved in this project have anything less than respect and gratitude towards her.

We ultimately did not want to take any of Eden's money preferring instead to choose integrity and loyalty over money. In this world, where there are many online sex toy shops to choose, I want to give my business to a company who treats their employees with respect and fairness. I suggest that Fred pay AAG what he owes her and apologize for the grief he has caused her. It is one thing to truly want to be involved in community projects and to do good in the world, it is entirely another to only want to seem that way. After all this, if Eden wants to be perceived as honest, involved and trustworthy, it will take more than empty words.

I was one of the people who posted about the categories, so I totally agree with you on that point. It's restrictive and not at all useful.

I read through your whole post and a lot of it makes sense. But if you click on the male sex toys and prostate massagers you find a lot of anal toys. Toys that yes I can choose to use as a woman but we often come across toys that have numerous purposes. Its easier to have one classification - I mean shoppers aren't ignorant they can figure out or play around and find categories that have the toy they want.

I also can understand that they chose to put specifically female and male toys in those labelled sections. Ofcourse males can be females and vice versa, they can or cannot have parts normally associated with the terms 'male' and 'female' but this isn't an exercise on making sure every damn thing is politically correct.

When people think of female they think of vaginas - they don't automatically think oh wait they might not have one... so Eden Fantasys has a bunch of toys for the vagina.

When people think of males they obviously think of cocks. I mean seriously. Even gay guys can have cocks right??? So then they have toys that cater to their cocks. Seems fairly simple to me. The point is that all of it is sex positive. No where do they say anything is wrong - they make all the toys available for any type of use for any type of person - they just label things to make it easier for us to find in the most logical way we can think of.

And side note: anal toys do have their own category as well.

The reviewers do a fantastic job of bringing to light everything you mentioned about biological sex and gender. Yes it's not their job but don't you think it makes the site all the more sex positive? That all these different people from all walks of life are comfortable and happy shopping here? That they are comfortable airing their opinions however diverse?

I for one actually don't have a problem with the way things are organised and in the instances that I cannot find what I'm looking for I use the keyword tool.

In terms of AAG I'm very sad to hear what happened to her. I obviously understand that a lot of people were led here due to her efforts and her vouching for this site. I don't know about the details of her treatment because I wasn't involved. I love following her blog and I think she's a remarkable woman that shouldn't have been subjected to this treatment. However I do know that as a reviewer I've never had to doubt Eden Fantasy. I've had my toys delivered on time, I've had my questions answered promptly and I love interacting with all the people on here. I take things one step at a time and don't let other people's influence (good or bad) affect my decisions.

There's an interesting series on this situation at sexorcism.blogspot.com . That Toy Chick (toychick.blogspot.com ) also covers it in her blog.

Dear Maria,

Thank you for accepting my invitation to vent out your concerns openly on the forum. I personally think that openness leads to at least some degree of objectivity. Let me address the issues.

1. Eden as a sex positive community.

Eden is not trying to promote itself as being sex-positive; it IS a sex-positive community and the most honest e-tailer out there. Sex-Positivism is very complex notion and one can find different meanings of it. Eden defines sex-positivism as embracing all genders and orientations; all-inclusive, and completely accepting to all types of kink, fetishes, etc., even a major portion of the population who may not even understand very specific social and gender issues. Being sex-positive in a very large way means being humanitarian in one’s outlook.

How do we translate this principle into the practice? First and foremost, we as a community stand for dealing honestly with our customers and employees. I am proud to say that we have indeed achieved very high level of fairness, acceptance, and respect in working with customers and with the community, both on an individual basis and as a whole.

From my vast online experience, there is no online store (not only in the adult industry) that has a track record of fairness and acceptance as Eden has.

Eden as a business doesn’t make a lot of money. We do earn modest salaries for ourselves, which isn’t as glamorous as one might think. But what keeps us excited every day when we go to work is the knowledge that we are making a difference in the cruel, cluttered and often dishonest commercial interests found on the internet. We will continue making a difference – this is my promise to you.

Addressing the concern with product categorization. You are absolutely right – these categories don’t make much sense. They are sort of offensive; however it was never intended to be as such, and we have taken your concerns on this matter as an urgent need to revamp it completely. Unfortunately, we don’t have enough resources to make it happen immediately. Moreover, we are still researching how to make it better. And to this point, we would be extremely grateful if you or other community members who deeply understand these gender issues would offer your advice here. After all, this is your community; so we want to hear from you.


2. AAG


The AAG situation is a far more complicated issue, I’m afraid. We worked together on good terms for some time, until it came to my attention that she was engaging in unscrupulous business practices.

She arranged writing review by Blogger X. She did it on behalf of Eden, working for a generous hourly rate of pay, with Eden providing free toys and banners. Blogger X posted a great review that featured promotional links to Eden (as part of the deal) and Babeland and VibeReview as well as others – all in the very same review. Because Eden paid AAG for the review and provided Blogger X with free toys, I expected the review would be promoting Eden; not the others. AAG’s explanation was that I didn’t exactly specify the terms and therefore, she thought this practice would be okay with me. From my perspective as a business owner, it is crossing the lines and double-dealing. For this, she was terminated from Eden. She, however, continues to represent other sites and collect payment from them.

She wasn’t paid for the last week of work not because she abused my trust. She submitted an invoice for $1,600 (on her blog she cites $1,200), which was as agreed. Because she was leaving, I asked her to provide me with all the blogger contacts she made on behalf of Eden, and what she was billing for. AAG refused this request, and it was here that we got stuck.

This is not a “money saving” measure for me. The issue at hand is that she didn’t release her results yet demanded payment. “Pay me now and I will give you the info later” – was her response. Would you pay on such terms? Especially, after she was discovered to be engaging in such practices. I was shocked and deeply offended by her behavior.

However, the door for her is still open. If she wants to talk – she knows how to reach me.


Dear community members,

We all have the responsibility to make important choices. A very serious one is coming upon Nov 4th. Choice, from a community standpoint, however, should be far easier and a lot more fun. Although, I have to admit, the presidential campaign has beat us in terms of fun and entertainment from nearly every angle.

I just want all of you to know: We are here for you and our choice is YOU.

Best regards,

-Fred

Thanks for the update. I appreciate your response. However, we're going to have to agree to disagree--obviously, you and I have very different definitions of "sex positive" and "fair treatment of employees", and that's fine.

Dear Maria,

I read your original post and Fred's response to your post. Respectfully, I don't see how you can still feel that Eden Fantasys's definition of "sex positive" differs from yours. The main issue you seemed to have was that the categories were gender-restrictive; however, Fred agreed with you on this. Aside from your point of "fair treatment of employees", which is an entirely separate issue, what else is there that you disagree with?

Regarding changing the categories, I'd like to point out that this might not be as simple as one would think. The links on Eden Fantasys's website most likely point to different parts of several large databases, and changes to the links on the website’s layout, could greatly impact these underlying databases.

For example, and without getting too technical, moving or changing just one link could have far-reaching and unpredictable consequences on important data such as customer order history, current and historic strategic business units, current and past inventory, financial reporting, etc. Also, different links could affect different parts, and some of those parts might have to be restructured before the links could be changed. Furthermore, each modification would have to be vigorously tested, one by one, before implementing the whole into the "live production" (the website we see now).

Considering the number of links that need to be changed, let alone the amount of time needed to plan and design a new layout for the website, one can see that a task this complex could take not only weeks, but more likely months to complete.

In my opinion, the only fault of Eden Fantasys is that they didn't respond sooner to the forum posts regarding changing the categories and explain the complexity of the challenges they faced. However, and again this is only my opinion, that doesn't mean they weren't working on it. I personally believe they were. Otherwise, Fred, who I assume is an executive at Eden Fantasys, wouldn't have been able to tell you that they didn't have enough resources; he wouldn't have known.

I can easily understand that their definitions of "sex positive" differ. Gendering toys is restrictive. So is describing toys as "gay" or "lesbian". Some shoppers may find it useful but I find it less than inclusive.

Hi Snappy.

I completely agree that gendering toys is restrictive, but not to keep beating a dead horse, doesn't this go to the point that changing the categories would resolve this problem? Maria's point was specifically that; the categories needed changed to accommodate everyone. Fred's point was that he agreed with her. Additionally, when the categories are changed, so will their labels and descriptions be changed.

So what is it I'm missing here? Why is there still a conflict?

Respectfully, Snappy, I simply don't understand the premise behind your and Maria's last posts. From everything I've read, both Maria and Fred agree; the categories as they stand can be offensive to some and need restructured so that no one will feel offended, left out, ashamed, or even awkward when shopping at Eden Fantasys.

I'd like to add that my post was mainly meant to explain two things; 1) It is very likely that restructuring the categories is a project that will require more time than most of us think; and 2) Just because changing the categories could end up being a complex and involved task, doesn't mean Eden Fantasys can't do it or aren't presently working on it. I believe they can and that they are. I also believe they will get these changes implemented.

For these reasons, although I didn't explain this in my post and I should have, I believe we owe Eden Fantasy's some patience and faith, but most of all, the benefit of the doubt that they do care about treating people fairly and that they will get the categories changed. I, personally have never been let down by Eden Fantasys. In fact, I've been treated with nothing short of kindess and respect.

I have multiple sclerosis and have been sick for long periods of time. When I was late posting my last review, not only did Eden Fantasy's allow me more time, they were respectful and showed me understanding in such a way that I could still maintain my dignity and not feel like a "please just go away, get out of my hair, you ignorant geek". In my experience, it's been far and few between where a company has treated me so well, without bias, and as a normal person who has a brain.

This is the Eden Fantasys I know . . .You can make up your own mind.

I'm glad that they are going to restructure the review categories. I thought about this and my opinion stands. It might be helpful for shoppers but to me it feels restrictive and insufficiently inclusive. As a straight ally, I felt the need to speak up about that. Maybe people who are gay and lesbian find it easier to shop here because those categories exist. I can't possibly know how they experience the categorization of products firsthand. And I'm not trying to nitpick Eden Fantasys. I haven't had any problems with the company. They asked for opinions and here is mine. Your opinion differs and that is ok. This is a forum, right? Not a soapbox.

You're so right, Snappy, and I apologize for the soapbox (the addition to my own post). I regret posting it not only because I did it in an inappropriate venue but also because I divulged information about myself that I wasn't ready to divulge. When I'm sick like I was last night, I lose all sense of rationality.

Want to know something funny? I didn't even remember writing it until I saw it just now. And, it's a reply to my own post of all things! Can't say I've seen that one before. What's really bad is I know I was on other sites last night, and now I'm too afraid to go look at them in case I did the same stupid thing. I'm laughing right now just writing this, so if you don't find it funny, it's perfectly ok. No worries.

Thanks for those thoughts, Mystery and Snappy. It's true, restructuring the categories is a HUGE project that will take months, but is also in process. It was definitely a mistake made at the beginning of the site, but one with good intentions, not a sex-negative or exclusive attitude.