"Unnatural"? It doesn't matter.

Llewey Llewey
Some thoughts: Even if, hypothetically, gender identity and sexuality were COMPLETELY optional, or "choices"... Would the cause of equal rights for all gender identities and sexualities be logically undermined in any significant way? If someone has chosen to act, dress, have sex, or generally just live their life peacefully in a non-normative way, does society have the right to condemn them if there are not any real negative societal effects stemming from the core of their choices? Why is the majority on the pro-LGBT side shouting "Born this way!" and the anti-LGBT side shouting "It's unnatural!"? How is the "natural/unnatural" argument at all relevant in the context of whether or not to treat all people equally?

It should be noted any chance of sexuality and/or gender identity being a choice have been rather thoroughly scientifically ruled out at this point. This is a hypothetical situation meant to stir up some thoughts and civil debate. What do you all think?
04/29/2013
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TheirPet TheirPet
As someone of non-binary gender I feel like it's not a choice at all. I don't know why anybody would choose a path that's so hard. And it is hard. The suicide rate of transgender and non-binary identifying people is crazy high even compared to LGB community members.
04/29/2013
Llewey Llewey
Quote:
Originally posted by TheirPet
As someone of non-binary gender I feel like it's not a choice at all. I don't know why anybody would choose a path that's so hard. And it is hard. The suicide rate of transgender and non-binary identifying people is crazy high even ... More
Oh, I absolutely agree! I'm not arguing whether it is a choice or not, but rather "What is the significance / why does it matter?" when it comes to treating everyone with the same level of respect and legal protection.
04/29/2013
Mwar Mwar
In the US I believe it is the pushed religious tones to our government. Church and state are not separate. People should be able to do as they please so long as no one is hurt.
04/29/2013
Hentialover Hentialover
Quote:
Originally posted by Llewey
Some thoughts: Even if, hypothetically, gender identity and sexuality were COMPLETELY optional, or "choices"... Would the cause of equal rights for all gender identities and sexualities be logically undermined in any significant way? If ... More
I think that everyone is so concerned with what -everyone- else is doing, that they just don't seem to care if it doesn't effect them or hurt them in anyway. I'm gay, and happy to be so, but I know that when I get the speech about how "If you are gay, that's okay, but why do I have to act on it?" or something about human nature, I always want to reply with. "Why is this so damn important?"

To be honest I think that sexuality and gender are stupid things for people to stick their noses into, especially when it has nothing to do with you. It seems to me, that when society is brought up to believe something is wrong, they are most likely going to reject it, even if they know it's not hurting anyone. Sadly that seems to be how most people think. However, it's thoughts like yours, and 'blogs' like this, that give people the chance to step back and think "...huh... why is it a big deal." And that is what is going to make a difference in this world.
04/30/2013
GONE! GONE!
It grieves me that people care so much. Life in general is unnatural these days, people who hate on us LGBT people should go shout at a toaster for being immoral and cook all their food over a fire or something instead of bugging us.
04/30/2013
talon4196 talon4196
I don't know why so many people care. They take care of their own business.
04/30/2013
bayosgirl bayosgirl
Quote:
Originally posted by Hentialover
I think that everyone is so concerned with what -everyone- else is doing, that they just don't seem to care if it doesn't effect them or hurt them in anyway. I'm gay, and happy to be so, but I know that when I get the speech about how ... More
I agree. Why don't people worry about the real atrocities in the world: child or animal abuse, domestic violence, rape, etc? What people choose to do in their own bedrooms is none of my concern. Or how they live their lives (as a trans person, for example) for that matter. As long as they are good people, I don't care.
05/01/2013
Ciao. Ciao.
The choice issue (valid or not) should not matter, in my opinion. Gender identity/sexuality is a form of self-expression and is not really harmful to anyone. Seems like an obvious vote for equality/protections to me, but then I'm trans, and ultimately any behaviors that challenge the norm are going to face people who are fearful of changes and impacts they may have.
05/01/2013
friendswithfangs friendswithfangs
You're absolutely right, and while I understand that having this "born this way" slogan to hold on to might be comforting for some people, it's sort of inherently damaging to the movement and to individuals who don't experience the generic "trans* narrative" that it supports. For some people who identify as trans* or queer maybe they don't feel like they were born that way, maybe they changed along the way, and that shouldn't make their experience any less valid to anyone.
05/01/2013
Llewey Llewey
Quote:
Originally posted by friendswithfangs
You're absolutely right, and while I understand that having this "born this way" slogan to hold on to might be comforting for some people, it's sort of inherently damaging to the movement and to individuals who don't experience ... More
My feelings exactly. Most trans* people, even if they had not always "felt like / not felt like a [insert gender here]," can still go back and find hints of their true gender identity showing through even when they identified as cisgender. However, saying "born this way" alienates a lot of LGBT people if they did not always know their true sexual or gender identity.
05/01/2013
treehugger treehugger
I agree, and I think another issue with the whole "born this way" thing is that it kind of seems like an "I was born this way, I can't help it, so you have to accept me" sort of thing.
05/01/2013
Llewey Llewey
Quote:
Originally posted by treehugger
I agree, and I think another issue with the whole "born this way" thing is that it kind of seems like an "I was born this way, I can't help it, so you have to accept me" sort of thing.
Yes! It seems apologetic, like an alcoholic saying "I can't help my drinking! It's in my genes." Rather than just saying "It's none of your business what people legally and harmlessly do with their bodies and lives; it has no ill effects whatsoever on your life."
05/01/2013
needapacker needapacker
It does matter because of insurance coverage. If they think it's a choice it would be viewed as cosmetic and they wouldn't cover it. Now I don't know about you, but I like it when my health costs are covered by my health insurance. But hey if you want to pay tens of thousands out of pocket for being on surgeries and HRT for the rest of your life, go right ahead.
05/02/2013
treehugger treehugger
Quote:
Originally posted by needapacker
It does matter because of insurance coverage. If they think it's a choice it would be viewed as cosmetic and they wouldn't cover it. Now I don't know about you, but I like it when my health costs are covered by my health insurance. But ... More
Not all insurance covers HRT, much less gender affirmation surgeries... And, also, some insurance plans do cover cosmetic surgery, so...
05/02/2013
Llewey Llewey
Quote:
Originally posted by needapacker
It does matter because of insurance coverage. If they think it's a choice it would be viewed as cosmetic and they wouldn't cover it. Now I don't know about you, but I like it when my health costs are covered by my health insurance. But ... More
Trans* people need to see a gender therapist before starting treatments, anyway (at least, in my state). If there is real pain and discomfort as they are now, it being covered by health insurance would be justifiable nonetheless. Or we could have a sane health insurance scheme like most of the rest of the industrialized world, but that's a different discussion entirely...

The solution to this issue is not to have trans* folks' narratives being dictated by a Life As A Trans* Person's checklist, and instead modify our healthcare system to better help trans* people. As it stands, your point is a valid one; it's a good thing being trans* is becoming more and more falsified as a choice or something that can be "cured." Thank you for a new perspective.
05/02/2013
needapacker needapacker
Quote:
Originally posted by treehugger
Not all insurance covers HRT, much less gender affirmation surgeries... And, also, some insurance plans do cover cosmetic surgery, so...
Yeah, that's the problem. It's viewed as a choice therefore unnecessary so they don't cover it.
05/05/2013
TransMarc TransMarc
Well, I do know some people who think it's not a choice also want to cure it, but do they also want to cure my having blue eyes? It wasn't a choice, I was born with these and most people have brown eyes, so I wonder. Well, they want to cure it because they think it's bad whereas they don't think my eye color is bad, but they would think it's bad whether or not it's a choice in their eyes. I think they'd be equally abusive in both cases, just differently. If they think it's not a choice, they'll attempt to cure me; if they think it is, they'll get physically violent or verbally abusive, etc.
05/12/2013
tami tami
Quote:
Originally posted by Llewey
Some thoughts: Even if, hypothetically, gender identity and sexuality were COMPLETELY optional, or "choices"... Would the cause of equal rights for all gender identities and sexualities be logically undermined in any significant way? If ... More
I do not think it is a choice I think it is how you are born
05/12/2013
needapacker needapacker
Quote:
Originally posted by TransMarc
Well, I do know some people who think it's not a choice also want to cure it, but do they also want to cure my having blue eyes? It wasn't a choice, I was born with these and most people have brown eyes, so I wonder. Well, they want to cure ... More
Blue eyes does not cause any harm. Having blue eyes does not drive 41% of those who have them to commit suicide. Having blue eyes doesn't hinder your ability to live a normal life. Having blue eyes doesn't make you feel wrong, like a freak. There is no need to change blue eyes.Medical treatment for transsexuals IS needed.
05/13/2013
alextge alextge
Quote:
Originally posted by Llewey
Some thoughts: Even if, hypothetically, gender identity and sexuality were COMPLETELY optional, or "choices"... Would the cause of equal rights for all gender identities and sexualities be logically undermined in any significant way? If ... More
I think it's just an easy way to respond to something you can't fully understand
05/14/2013
Total posts: 21
Unique posters: 14