My college rugby team is struggling with the issue of transgendered players both within the team and administrators
How comfortable would you be with a MTF playing on a woman's Rugby team?
03/04/2011
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I'm not sure what the problem is with that and what the arguments being made against are. I can say I wouldn't have a problem at all. That person is a female in all but body. They feel like a woman and should be acknowledged as such, in my opinion.
03/04/2011
Quote:
This issue dates back to the 70s when Renee Richards successfully sued so that she could play pro tennis and has again been in the news recently with the rulings on that great MTF South African sprinter. The issue most people have is a potential competitive advantage because of the anatomical difference in size and strength between women and MTF transgendered people. It is true that, on average, biological males are bigger and stronger than biological females, but I'm not sure how much that changes with the change in sex hormones.
Originally posted by
Miss Madeline
I'm not sure what the problem is with that and what the arguments being made against are. I can say I wouldn't have a problem at all. That person is a female in all but body. They feel like a woman and should be acknowledged as such, in my
...
more
I'm not sure what the problem is with that and what the arguments being made against are. I can say I wouldn't have a problem at all. That person is a female in all but body. They feel like a woman and should be acknowledged as such, in my opinion.
less
All in all, I understand the arguments on both sides when it comes to sports, but outside sports (if then), there is absolutely no reason to treat a MTF transgendered person any differently than anyone else.
03/05/2011
I'm not uncomfortable from a political standpoint or an idealogical standpoint. However, as the smallest person on a rugby team, I'd have to say that it would depend on the individual's size and shape.
03/06/2011
Seems like a complex issue when you really start thinking about it. I guess competitive advantage would be the biggest factor in making a decision.
03/06/2011
As a trans-guy and athlete I see both sides of this one. On the one hand I say "go for it!" on the other hand I can see why it may not be the best idea.
From a physiological standpoint if she has not had an orchiectomy (removal of the testis) she will definitely have an unfair advantage. Along the physiological lines, her anatomy may also make others uncomfortable in the locker room as well as be made more uncomfortable herself, something I have personal experience with.
In my experience the more competitive the league the more likely it is that I am not allowed to play in it due to being on testosterone. My T levels aren't any higher than the average males on the teams but since it's synthetic its seen as an unfair advantage. In this case, hers would be natural, and therefore a potential, and more real, unfair advantage.
On the other hand, if you are female you should be allowed and welcomed in female specific groups or spaces.
Unfortunately those of us who challenge gender stereotypes tend to make some people very uncomfortable, but this is a two way street. It is neither fair for us to insist on being allowed when and where others will be made to feel uncomfortable, nor is it fair for others to exclude us and make us feel uncomfortable. This is the very trail gender variant individuals must continue to blaze.
From a physiological standpoint if she has not had an orchiectomy (removal of the testis) she will definitely have an unfair advantage. Along the physiological lines, her anatomy may also make others uncomfortable in the locker room as well as be made more uncomfortable herself, something I have personal experience with.
In my experience the more competitive the league the more likely it is that I am not allowed to play in it due to being on testosterone. My T levels aren't any higher than the average males on the teams but since it's synthetic its seen as an unfair advantage. In this case, hers would be natural, and therefore a potential, and more real, unfair advantage.
On the other hand, if you are female you should be allowed and welcomed in female specific groups or spaces.
Unfortunately those of us who challenge gender stereotypes tend to make some people very uncomfortable, but this is a two way street. It is neither fair for us to insist on being allowed when and where others will be made to feel uncomfortable, nor is it fair for others to exclude us and make us feel uncomfortable. This is the very trail gender variant individuals must continue to blaze.
03/11/2011
There shouldn't be any problem.. the player should be able to participate on the team that is the gender that the individual associates with. That is the bottom line.
03/19/2011
hornypoet69
I can understand how it might make be perceived as unfair. However, I can't see any fair way to exclude this trans woman. There are probably some bio-women on the team bigger and stronger than she is, are we supposed to exclude them for having an unfair advantage?
03/19/2011
I would be perfectly cool with it. I find it weird how in even some feminist circles MTF aren't always welcomed because they're not "actually female", etc. other rubbish (though definitely an opinion I seen held in the minority of these groups) considering the beliefs that they follow. My only concern would be strength, size and hormones that might affect in-game fairness and the like.
03/30/2011
Women come in varying sizes. I'm a cisgendered woman who stands 5"10 and weighs 250 lbs. I can hold my own with my male friends in the weight room, and even best some of them. I don't really consider size and strength a fair reason to exempt someone from playing.
04/23/2011
I voted very comfortable.
But I do think it also depends on what others have pointed out already.
The first thought that came to my mind was "nice, more competition"! Not a biased upset.
But I do think it also depends on what others have pointed out already.
The first thought that came to my mind was "nice, more competition"! Not a biased upset.
04/23/2011
I wouldnt mind but it might be an unfair advantage, though thats not a bad thing!
04/23/2011
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not uncomfortable with that at all. all i have to say about it is "kick some ass girl!!" lol
Originally posted by
ARJLES
My college rugby team is struggling with the issue of transgendered players both within the team and administrators
05/22/2011
very
06/28/2011
Completely comfortable.
06/30/2011
There are so many factors that need to be considered. You haven't stated if the Women on your team are in the process of transitioning to male or males transitioned to female.
This is where my problems lay:
MTF - the MTF body has developed as a M and will naturally be larger and more muscular.
FTM - they are most likely on T and if they want to be considered male on every other field they should be playing in the mens league.
This is where my problems lay:
MTF - the MTF body has developed as a M and will naturally be larger and more muscular.
FTM - they are most likely on T and if they want to be considered male on every other field they should be playing in the mens league.
07/09/2011
Quote:
I would simply say this: if the girl is on hormones and/or no longer has testes (not 100% familiar with regards to which extent the testes still play a role if she is on female hormones / blocking male hormones), then any "unfair advantage" (being larger and more muscular) would disappear since she would be like any other girl - the fact that she may be taller than average (and that's IF she is) isn't really reason to disqualify someone. But the muscular advantage argument is moot - without testosterone, she'd be equal to her cisgendered teammates and not at an advantage.
Originally posted by
Gingy
There are so many factors that need to be considered. You haven't stated if the Women on your team are in the process of transitioning to male or males transitioned to female.
This is where my problems lay:
MTF - the MTF body has ... more
This is where my problems lay:
MTF - the MTF body has ... more
There are so many factors that need to be considered. You haven't stated if the Women on your team are in the process of transitioning to male or males transitioned to female.
This is where my problems lay:
MTF - the MTF body has developed as a M and will naturally be larger and more muscular.
FTM - they are most likely on T and if they want to be considered male on every other field they should be playing in the mens league. less
This is where my problems lay:
MTF - the MTF body has developed as a M and will naturally be larger and more muscular.
FTM - they are most likely on T and if they want to be considered male on every other field they should be playing in the mens league. less
Same goes for the FTM players - pre-T he wouldn't be at an advantage over the women, but on T, he belongs with the men.
Average sports performance differences in men and women can primarily be attributed to hormone differences, so that's the part that's key as far as I see it.
07/17/2011
As long as her hormones were the same levels as cisgender women's levels.
03/14/2012
Me: She identifies as a girl. So she's a girl.
Friend: But she's really a
Me: No stop
Friend: But she's really a
Me: No stop
03/24/2012
Quote:
Even cis women's hormone levels varies.
Originally posted by
Schattenstern
As long as her hormones were the same levels as cisgender women's levels.
If some cis woman had an illness making her hormone levels similar to that of the average cis man without making it dangerous for her to play, would you keep her for playing? :/
As to having an advantage over her teammates, it's a TEAM game! Her teammates probably won't care about whatever advantage she might have as long as she is able to play, the other teams might be a bother on the other hand.
04/14/2012
Sex-segregated sports are the problem in the first place.
If it's a "for fun" team/league - shouldn't be a problem.
With more "serious", competitive and regulated ones, perhaps a test of abilities and skill should determine "fairness" - not sex. It would make things complicated, indeed - and players would be subject to re-evaluation, making it harder to keep a team together.
Sex-segregation is just the easy way out and an easy way of telling all girls that they'll never be in the same game as any man despite there being quite a bit of overlap in the less-serious sport world where no one is pushing their body to the true extremes of their biological potentials.
If the person isn't on the field - like an administrator, it shouldn't be an issue, period because that's totally bullshit if someone makes it out to be one.
If it's a "for fun" team/league - shouldn't be a problem.
With more "serious", competitive and regulated ones, perhaps a test of abilities and skill should determine "fairness" - not sex. It would make things complicated, indeed - and players would be subject to re-evaluation, making it harder to keep a team together.
Sex-segregation is just the easy way out and an easy way of telling all girls that they'll never be in the same game as any man despite there being quite a bit of overlap in the less-serious sport world where no one is pushing their body to the true extremes of their biological potentials.
If the person isn't on the field - like an administrator, it shouldn't be an issue, period because that's totally bullshit if someone makes it out to be one.
04/14/2012
I can see where their might be some issues with some physical advantages, but I think it comes down to how the referees feel and how the individual in particular feels about.
04/14/2012
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I am very comfortable with it.
Originally posted by
ARJLES
My college rugby team is struggling with the issue of transgendered players both within the team and administrators
04/14/2012
Quote:
it doesnt matter shes a women so whats the problem..
Originally posted by
ARJLES
My college rugby team is struggling with the issue of transgendered players both within the team and administrators
04/14/2012
My problem with letting an MtF play on a women's team is only this: I know not one FtM who is allowed to play on a men's team. However, my opinion in general is that it shouldn't matter in either case. Just let people play without having to undermine their identity.
04/16/2012
I would be fine with it
04/16/2012
Quote:
Was she MTF? That was Castor, right? All the news I heard about her was kind of weird, but I was under the impression that she's been female-identified and legally female her whole life--but they found some intersex genetic stuff going on and banned her from competition. I'm just curious. She dropped out of the news before I really understood what was going on.
Originally posted by
Vaccinium
This issue dates back to the 70s when Renee Richards successfully sued so that she could play pro tennis and has again been in the news recently with the rulings on that great MTF South African sprinter. The issue most people have is a potential
...
more
This issue dates back to the 70s when Renee Richards successfully sued so that she could play pro tennis and has again been in the news recently with the rulings on that great MTF South African sprinter. The issue most people have is a potential competitive advantage because of the anatomical difference in size and strength between women and MTF transgendered people. It is true that, on average, biological males are bigger and stronger than biological females, but I'm not sure how much that changes with the change in sex hormones.
All in all, I understand the arguments on both sides when it comes to sports, but outside sports (if then), there is absolutely no reason to treat a MTF transgendered person any differently than anyone else. less
All in all, I understand the arguments on both sides when it comes to sports, but outside sports (if then), there is absolutely no reason to treat a MTF transgendered person any differently than anyone else. less
04/18/2012
i'm not sure, i'd have to think about it
04/18/2012
While a trans woman's physical size would be beneficial, size isn't everything on the footy field. I'd have no issue playing with a trans woman.
I'm FTM and I have played on a boys team. Unfortunately I'm now far too slight to play on any team, so I'm refereeing.
I'm FTM and I have played on a boys team. Unfortunately I'm now far too slight to play on any team, so I'm refereeing.
05/05/2012
Quote:
I feel this way as well.
Originally posted by
Miss Madeline
I'm not sure what the problem is with that and what the arguments being made against are. I can say I wouldn't have a problem at all. That person is a female in all but body. They feel like a woman and should be acknowledged as such, in my
...
more
I'm not sure what the problem is with that and what the arguments being made against are. I can say I wouldn't have a problem at all. That person is a female in all but body. They feel like a woman and should be acknowledged as such, in my opinion.
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05/06/2012
Total posts: 39
Unique posters: 39
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