Including the "T" in BGLT

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Including the "T" in BGLT

 
 
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Sir Sir
As a general thing that I've seen occurring often, the BGL portion of the BGLT community is very ignorant to or is against the T. As in, the gays, lesbians, and bisexuals do not know what the T stands for, do not understand it, do not respect it, and are rarely accepting of it.

Of course, to every general statement, there are exceptions.

We have quite a number of trans- people in our community (I always use the term "trans-" to denote that I am including any ending verbiage that people may choose to use for themselves), and as a whole, many of the people here are both understanding, accepting, and supportive. Outside of this sex community, it sadly is a rare thing.

What are your thoughts on the trans- identities being included with the sexualities? Gender identity and sexuality are two very different things, yet they are lumped together where gender identity is often misunderstood.
09/24/2009
Red Red
My university group uses the LGBTTQ letter pile, where the two T's are "trans" and "two spirit" (and the Q is queer). I'm not sure where it might end - perhaps, they should add a "K" for kinky I agree, it seems really strange to lump "alternative sexualities" with "alternative genders" (for lack of a better word, by the way). Cause, you can be a bisexual transgendered person...etc.

I think its just kind of a general lumping of terms based on the fact that these are visible, yet "minor" groups. It's kind of like when I make a pie chart to explain a concept in my work - all of the even vaguely connected concepts that are teeny often get lumped into a single piece of the pie, just for visuals sake. Does that make sense?

Anyways, maybe it is a good thing, at the moment, because higher numbers overall mean more "clout". And maybe there's a lot of overlap between people that would define themselves as trans and those that would define themselves as having an "alternative" sexuality, as a consequence of being a person who's open to questing normal assumptions about sex and gender? I dunno.

and to throw a new bone into the mix - what of intersexed people - as in, biologically intersexed (chromosomes, non functing testerosterone receptors, etc). Should they be called intergendered? Why don't they get lumped in to this broad sweeping category....etc.

Anyways, what do I know - not much! Interested to see what others have to say.
09/24/2009
Sir Sir
Quote:
Originally posted by Red
My university group uses the LGBTTQ letter pile, where the two T's are "trans" and "two spirit" (and the Q is queer). I'm not sure where it might end - perhaps, they should add a "K" for kinky I agree, it seems really strange to lump "alternative ... More
Quite honestly, intersexed people generally aren't included in anything, and that's a whole separate issue that even some trans- people do not know about.

No, intersexed people are not intersexed by gender idetity, it's purely a medical condition of variation. Why don't they get added to the category? Who knows!
09/24/2009
Rockin' Rockin'
I have most often seen the "letter pile" LGBT, but I have certainly seen LGBTIAQ (intersex, allies, queer) in numerous places as well. I'd never seen a T for Two-spirited until today. Thanks Red!

I think the inclusion of T in LGBT is a good reason for some of the reasons Red mentioned. Power in numbers.

(I'm going out on a limb here...)
I also think that people with less informed viewpoints might see trans people as being gay/lesbian even if they aren't. If someone doesn't accept another person's gender identity, they may mistakenly mislabel the person. For instance, if a transman dates a woman (whether cis or trans), if someone doesn't accept the transman as male, they may see the relationship between the transman and the woman as a lesbian relationship (even though it isn't). This isn't a "good" reason to include a T in LGBT but might be part of some people's reasoning. I'm just speculating here.
09/24/2009
Sir Sir
Quote:
Originally posted by Rockin'
I have most often seen the "letter pile" LGBT, but I have certainly seen LGBTIAQ (intersex, allies, queer) in numerous places as well. I'd never seen a T for Two-spirited until today. Thanks Red!

I think the inclusion of T in LGBT is a good ... More
So are you saying that it's included because people are ignorant and think that trans- men and trans- women are lesbian and gay? I don't understand what you meant by that, I apologize.
09/24/2009
Rockin' Rockin'
Quote:
Originally posted by Sir
So are you saying that it's included because people are ignorant and think that trans- men and trans- women are lesbian and gay? I don't understand what you meant by that, I apologize.
Kind of. I think a lot of people don't know much about other people's sexualities and genders, and don't distinguish sex from gender, and therefore see trans people as being "similarly different" from heterosexual/cissexual /cisgender people, so trans people are "lumped" into the letter pile, too. For this "reasoning" of the inclusion of T in LGBT, ignorance is the cause.

I also think that trans folks encounter similar resistances as LGB folks (and then more that are specific to trans folks), so their causes may be aligned. In this instance, it's more of a common goal mentality that leads to the T being in LGBT.
09/24/2009
Owl Identified Owl Identified
Awesome post. Gender/sex identity doesn't necessarily have anything to do with sexual orientation. As an example, I don't think that a cissexual lesbian necessarily has, by virtue of being queer at least, anything particular in common with a heterosexual trans male. I also don't think she necessarily, by virtue of being queer, is any more likely to be educated on trans issues or have any particular insight into them.

It's true that those that are marginalized for their gender/sex histories and those that are marginalized for their sexual orientation are oppressed by the same social and political forces. We are all injured by the same kinds of institutionalized prejudice. However, those forces also marginalize and oppress women, people of color, poor people, etc. I mean, how long would the alphabet soup get if we included all of those and more? Additionally, how meaningful would it really be to lump all of these unique struggles into one group? Solidarity is one thing, but it's important that each group's set of challenges and triumphs be looked at separately as well as in relation to one another. They are all unique and I don't know if it's necessarily helpful to throw everything together in a Marginalized Folks™ pile.
09/25/2009
Sir Sir
My response is kind of to the both of you, because we all have similar ideas.

It definitely doesn't have a thing to do with sexual orientation, that's why I personally don't understand the inclusion.

I agree that they are very similarly discriminated against, but at the same, the actions set against gender and sexuality are completely different. Trans- people have been butchered, and people dealing with their cases have called it a hate crime in terms of it being a "homosexual hate crime," when it wasn't that at all.

Many times, people get them confused. Personally, I don't think that hate crimes need to be dealt with differently from one another. I see it this way: the bottom line is that a hate crime is a hate crime, and people should be accepting of one another. The world shouldn't be such a way where people are going against one another for stupid little quirky things.

But the inclusion of the T brings a lot of misunderstanding of the trans- community. That's why I wanted other opinions on this, because I personally think that it's odd that they'd include it, especially since in BGLT communities most of what it talked about is geared towards the gay and lesbian community, not even the bisexual or trans- community.
09/25/2009
Adriana Ravenlust Adriana Ravenlust
Quote:
Originally posted by Rockin'
Kind of. I think a lot of people don't know much about other people's sexualities and genders, and don't distinguish sex from gender, and therefore see trans people as being "similarly different" from heterosexual/cissexual /cisgender people, so ... More
I think you're right on with seeing people as "similarly different" and also there being power in numbers. All the groups summed up in LGBT are ones who may not have as much of a.. platform so binding them together gives them a bigger voice, perhaps.

and to Sir, just because you or I know trans is a gnder issue while gay/bi is a sexual orientation issue, doesn't mean most people do. I would hazard that most people are ignorant and do lump those together especially if their lives have never had direct influence by anyone L, G, B or T (which would likely motivate some research).

I do agree that the inclusion is odd when you look at what the groups have in common besides the goal to be accepted/understood (I'm really.. "dumbing" that down, I just wanted to name the goal understandably). But sometimes fighting the fight does cause people or groups to band together which otherwise have little in common.
09/25/2009
Sir Sir
Quote:
Originally posted by Adriana Ravenlust
I think you're right on with seeing people as "similarly different" and also there being power in numbers. All the groups summed up in LGBT are ones who may not have as much of a.. platform so binding them together gives them a bigger voice, ... More
But the problem is that while BGL is fighting for THEIR rights, they're not fighting for trans- rights. So what help is it, really?

None at all.
09/25/2009
Boink Boink
I certainly think it does cause some confusion to lump T in with more sexuality rather than gender oriented categories but I do think that there are good reasons for it and plenty of benefit for all parties involved. Obviously GLB people aren't necessarily going to share an agenda with trans people (nor will all trans people want to share agendas with GLB folks) but the basic issues at play are similar and the issues of legal coverage for alternative genders and sexualities and general knowledge and understanding are all pieces that all parties can work on together. I do think the "letter pile" (as it is very accurately called) can sometimes just be a messy category for "other" types of people (sexuality wise or gender wise or simply lifestyle wise) but I think it's nice to have some sense of a united group fighting for similarly aligned issues of social acceptance. As a trans person myself I can't say I always agree with the designation or the goals of all parts of the "pile" but it's nice to feel kinship and to have a shared identity of not being the norm. It's just me maybe, but I like the feeling of kinship with others who have undergone a similar social and personal identity struggle.
09/26/2009
Backseat Boohoo Backseat Boohoo
As far as I know, the "T" was included with "GLB" because the gay community initially was (and often, unfortunately, still is) one of the few communities open enough to accept transgender people. Like Boink said, neither group was considered the norm, and they were the outcasts of the outcasts. I know that the addition of the "T" can make it seem like gender and sexuality are lumped together, which I HATE, but I prefer to think of "GLBTQA" as a representation of all sexualities, genders, identities, etcetera; a bit of alphabet soup that tries to pronounce its community's openness (though it often fails).
09/26/2009
stuck in the middle stuck in the middle
Quote:
Originally posted by Backseat Boohoo
As far as I know, the "T" was included with "GLB" because the gay community initially was (and often, unfortunately, still is) one of the few communities open enough to accept transgender people. Like Boink said, neither group was considered the ... More
I just wanted to add IS people in general are considerd as trans if they want to change from what they appear to be to the other.From all the medical studies going on it looks as if trans/IS could become the same issue.There are over 40 types of intersexed people out there and as trans awareness improves and more medical studies are being done it is proving there are physical differences in the brains of trans people there for on a technical side they in reality are IS in yet another form.

For me I've known like most trans since childhood I felt like a girl and liked girly stuff and only have recently found out i was considerd IS as well.I found out by going through perimenopause.Up till going through that I had no clue that I was anything other than what is considerd a transperson.
01/19/2010
Luscious Lily Luscious Lily
Quote:
Originally posted by stuck in the middle
I just wanted to add IS people in general are considerd as trans if they want to change from what they appear to be to the other.From all the medical studies going on it looks as if trans/IS could become the same issue.There are over 40 types of ... More
The fact that LGBT communities aren't always accepting of trans- also makes it difficult to find welcoming support groups and communities, especially if you aren't in a big city. My dad actually fits into two bits of the alphabet soup: transitioning MTF, and lesbian. That has made it both easier and harder for him (as he's asked to be referred to for now) to be accepted in the LGBT community.

Stuck in the middle, I hadn't heard about the research pointing to trans possibly being a form of IS. Could you post links? I'd be really interested in reading any you'd care to pass on.
01/19/2010
Misha's Amusements Misha's Amusements
link



Good link for those who want to know a little more about Intersex individuals.
02/10/2010
David Thomas David Thomas
Quote:
Originally posted by Luscious Lily
The fact that LGBT communities aren't always accepting of trans- also makes it difficult to find welcoming support groups and communities, especially if you aren't in a big city. My dad actually fits into two bits of the alphabet soup: transitioning ... More
Only problem with this is that it is so complicated. Its made even more difficult by the fact that many IS people (in my experience) take great offence to transfolk aligning themselves with them. Also that there are a small portion of the trans community who tell others that they are intersex when in fact they are not, or it has not been medically proven that they are.

I think it comes back to the fact that transsexuality is still seen by many to be a thing to be ashamed of. It has not been fully proven medically that it is hard wired in the brain from before birth, so to some transfolk, claiming to be intersex perhaps explains a reason for transition when really, they dont need to give others a reason- it is perfectly okay to be trans, or experience transsexuality- whichever reason you have for transitioning is fine. But for some transpeople I have met, they feel the intense need to justify their transition by inventing a whole range of situations, medical problems and interventions etc, claiming their intersex status. I find this very saddening because I just want to reach out to these people and say its okay- you can be you, you dont have to give a reason for being you that other people have to accept. But I guess the world we live in makes some of us feel that we do need to give a reason to change, and some of us convince ourselves that it is in fact real.
Problem also being that some people are telling the truth about their intersex history and some are not, and those who are are understandably upset when questioned about it by others- and those who are not telling the truth upset the ones who really do have an intersex condition. Its a really difficult and volatile subject and one that people in my community (trans) are rarely willing to touch on.

I will be very curious to see the result of future research to find if trans is a form of IS, but I also wonder how IS folk will feel about that, especially those who do not identify as trans.
05/02/2010
Adriana Ravenlust Adriana Ravenlust
Quote:
Originally posted by Sir
But the problem is that while BGL is fighting for THEIR rights, they're not fighting for trans- rights. So what help is it, really?

None at all.
I didn't see your response, earlier.

It may help to have an acronym that people have to Google to understand. It may help to have friends who have to fight for their identity as you have had to fight. It may help just to promote general equality among folks with identities that have not been considered the norm... or it may not help at all.
05/02/2010
Sir Sir
Quote:
Originally posted by Adriana Ravenlust
I didn't see your response, earlier.

It may help to have an acronym that people have to Google to understand. It may help to have friends who have to fight for their identity as you have had to fight. It may help just to promote general ... More
I actually read a really good thing from the NOH8 campaign that said that every group that's against discrimination should come together to make change, and I fully agree with that. So I understand completely what you're saying. It may help to bring them all together, or may help the opposite way to disband them all.

I understand what you mean, though. Sometimes just having it there, the mention of it, helps, I suppose.
05/03/2010
Andromeda Andromeda
Thought y'all might be interested to know that my friend's university uses the following:

GLBPTQQIAA

for gay, lesbian, bisexual, pansexual, transgender, queer, questioning, intersex, androgynous, and asexual.
07/11/2010
Sir Sir
Quote:
Originally posted by Andromeda
Thought y'all might be interested to know that my friend's university uses the following:

GLBPTQQIAA

for gay, lesbian, bisexual, pansexual, transgender, queer, questioning, intersex, androgynous, and asexual.
Very cool! I like that.
07/11/2010
JR JR
(EdenFantasys)
Quote:
Originally posted by Andromeda
Thought y'all might be interested to know that my friend's university uses the following:

GLBPTQQIAA

for gay, lesbian, bisexual, pansexual, transgender, queer, questioning, intersex, androgynous, and asexual.
Wow! That's a HELL of an acronym! Imagine your points in Scrabble if it were a word and not a conglomeration of letters!
07/12/2010
jankit jankit
It is a little frustrating that gender identity is lumped in with sexuality! As a pansexual biofemale engaged to a pre-op transguy on T, lesbians are sure of our lesbianism: I've had guys come up to my partner and I and say, "You ladies are HOT!" Also, straight folks are sure of our homosexuality! People have looked at us twice, walking down the street with our hands held, where straight couples wouldn't be spared a second glance.

The purpose of support groups is to aide the minority; there is a reason why heterosexual and male/female are included under "allies" and don't have their own letter designation. It would be awesome to have an acronym like this: GLBPPA-TIQA FFS!

Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, Pansexual, Polysexual, Asexual - Transgender, Intersex, Queer, Androgynous and Folks and Families in Support (not "For Fuck's Sake" ha ha)
02/25/2011
lezergirl lezergirl
My college campus uses GLBTQ, and if we're feeling really ambitious, GLBTQQIAA (gay, lesbian, bi, trans, queer, questioning, intersex, asexual, allies).
03/08/2011
RonLee RonLee
I feel like the luckiest guy around since I met my partner. For me, it's the person, not the plumbing, that matters.
03/09/2011
jursa008 jursa008
I feel that the GLBTQ community is very torn on the subject of including the T. I have found many members of the community that believe that transgender males such as myself are abandoning the L community, and are traitors. i know others that are completely accepting. One thing is for sure, both sides have strong feelings about their opinions.
03/18/2011
Storm Elliott Storm Elliott
in my activism days it was LGBT and we all marched together. I think that as there is more education out there about gender issues being different then sexual identity...I don't quite understand the grouping or the going to the same bars. But I really don't care. Wherever everybody is comfortable and feels welcomed. and we are all fighting for equal rights and understanding, and to a chance to be around other minorities.

(sidenote: much of the community isn't to keen or educated on us B's either)
03/18/2011
hornypoet69 hornypoet69
I realize that gender and sexuality are separate issues, but that does not mean they are not related issues. The reason that sexuality is a debated topic, is because of the gender of people's chosen partners. No it's not the same as having a gender different than your assigned sex, but the fact is that everyone faces gender issues. So even from a logical perspective it makes sense for trans-people to be included in a similar umbrella as gay or bisexual people. Everyone in the acronym struggles with gender. It is because of gender that the community and the struggle exists at all.
03/19/2011
Gingy Gingy
I think everything I have ever encountered was LGBT....and honestly I don't know how I feel about the T being included. Simply because the LGB are sexual orientations and the T is a gender identification. Sometimes I think the T could be left out but I have no issue with it most times.
11/30/2011
Cherrylane Cherrylane
What I don't understand is why people always seem to be arbitarily switching around the order of lgb, glb, blg, bgl etc...

And of course, the T always comes last, assuming it's not followed by q. But I'm sure that's just a coincidence (sarcasm).
11/30/2011
Chirple Chirple
I think the communities are related in the way that feminists and those struggling for race equality are.

They are not *exactly* the same thing, but there's a lot of overlap and similar themes and they make good partners if they're willing to listen to each other and work together.

There are a lot of T people who identify as GLB/etc. The T community tends to have thought about a lot of the same issues the GLB has. By thinking about bodies and gender identity, one often thinks about sexuality and how GLB issues will impact them no matter what road they take.

I think that some GLB people have thought about T issues to an extent. I know butch lesbians can get "are you trying to be a guy" ? And the reciprocate with femme gay men. Granted, most haven't been where T people have, but I think that if people were open, there's plenty of room for mutual understanding.

Also, on another forum someone brought up the acronym "QUILTBAG". I thought it was cute and easy to remember.
12/01/2011
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