Pronouns in Reviews

Miss Cinnamon Miss Cinnamon
Quote:
Originally posted by Sir
There is no such thing as an "MTF brother." It's MTF sister, and FTM brother. They "prefer" these pronouns because their true gender is not that of their genetics. It isn't a matter of preference, it's a matter of ... More
The book was written in first person and the narrator often referred to the transgendered sibling as a brother (part of the character, I guess). I was mistaken in calling her a "brother". My bad.
05/17/2009
Not Here Anymore f/k/a Happy Lady Not Here Anymore f/k/a Happy Lady
Quote:
Originally posted by Sir
You should have just referred to him as "he," since that's what he is. It was wrong of you to even doubt or use other fake-pronouns. He is a male, no matter what, and though his anatomy is different from biological males, he's ... More
I find your admonishment of me extremely offensive. It appears you have not read through the posts of this topic or you would have seen me say (in as many different posts - directly copied and pasted):

1. I deliberately choose to use "hir" and "ze" as alternative pronouns to her/she because my partner is not a woman. I also didn't want to confuse the reader by using him/he immediately following my statements that I used the toy on female anatomy.
2. I use he/him/his on a daily basis when referring to my partner.
3. As I said above, the problem is how to reconcile those male pronouns in REVIEWS with descriptions of toy use on a female body part.
4.I care so much about this person that I want to make sure that not only am I respectful of his preferred references, but also that my readers understand (even just a little bit) that it is possible for a man to have "girly parts."
5.My partner prefers masculine pronouns and, quite frankly, he is a man to me so I automatically use them. The issue that arises here when writing a review is trying to describe a male person with female anatomy...

This post was never about what he should be called. It was about how to refer to my male partner who happens to have female anatomy in relation to describing the use of sex toys in written reviews.

I've NEVER "questioned" what to call him in life. I live with him and he started coming out as transitioning after we met. His struggles with the way other people treat him are part of my daily life. This is something I support him in 100% in every single way he asks and spend hours reading the experiences of others to help me think of more than what he asks to be there for him through this. We live in a little town in East TN and are judged and treated like freaks everywhere we go, but I still introduce him with his male name. I have even gotten into an argument with my best friend because said friend didn't appear to be trying to not use feminine pronouns.

I am far from perfect, but I think that anyone who actually takes the time to read my posts on this subject should be able to see that I only have the best intentions toward him. I could have just done nothing and left him out of my reviews, but why should I have to do that? Instead I started this post which appears to have educated other EF community members.

There have been times when I have disagreed with what others have said on various topics on these forums, but I have never really gotten upset. Congrats on being the first one to really piss me off.


And to everyone ELSE that has posted on here: thank you again for your support and suggestions.
05/17/2009
bodymodboy bodymodboy
Quote:
Originally posted by Miss Cinnamon
Wow... How did I miss this thread the first time around?

Regardless, I learned a lot by reading through the posts. I am aware of transgendered folks, but I was not aware that there are alternative pronouns for some of them. Most of what I know ... More
Yes, there are people who identify as genderqueer (like my biological male partner, Steph), and she prefers either pronouns. Some people may prefer gender neutral like zi/zim/zis.
05/18/2009
Sir Sir
Quote:
Originally posted by Not Here Anymore f/k/a Happy Lady
I find your admonishment of me extremely offensive. It appears you have not read through the posts of this topic or you would have seen me say (in as many different posts - directly copied and pasted):

1. I deliberately choose to use ... More
I did read your entire post, I did not mean to offend you. I really wasn't in any way being offensive to you. I also wasn't saying that you questioned his gender. I was saying that you questioned pronoun-use in your reviews, because I do understand what you meant. Hir and ze are third gender pronouns, not trans- pronouns, so that alone gives a misconception to people who are educated on the subject.

What I was telling you was that it shouldn't be in question, because if someone's going to be ignorant and wonder why you're using female-anatomied products on him, then that's their problem, not yours. The information that you just gave me was extremely unnecessary for me or anyone to know. Any transgender or transsexual person has gone through such things. I, for one, have too, so there is no reason to tell me your struggles. I understand. I was just responding and telling you point-blank what you should do.

Your response to me, however, was very offensive and rude. I was not in my post to you. Completely unnecessary. I did respond correctly to your question, so if you think that I didn't, then I apologize.
06/01/2009
Gabe Gabe
Whoa. Things have gotten a bit heated here. I think that if I've learned anything from being around the trans community is that our understanding of all these issues is evolving at an amazing rate. Five years ago, only a tiny segment of the trans community even knew what "genderqueer" meant, another big segment thought it was an umbrella term for the transgender community and anotehr big segment had never heard of it. It takes time, especially for a community as decentralized as the trans one, to negotiate language and norms. And even once we do, it's likely that, just as in the queer community and every other one, there will be multiple answers to questions like the one Happy Lady posed in this thread. The truth is that how a trans man is referred to in a post should be up to him, individually.

I think it's worth remembering that there is no right answer to this question-- even if lots of trans men feel a certain way, lots of others don't. I, for instance, have no problem with my brother referring to me as "his sister, who transitioned and now lives as a man." I know that he respects and aknowledges my gender identity and that his reference to me as his sister is purely informative and for the benefit of the listener.
06/02/2009
Sir Sir
Quote:
Originally posted by Gabe
Whoa. Things have gotten a bit heated here. I think that if I've learned anything from being around the trans community is that our understanding of all these issues is evolving at an amazing rate. Five years ago, only a tiny segment of the trans ... More
You're right. Every person is different, and trans- people are no exception to the rule. They all have their preferences.
06/02/2009
Sir Sir
Quote:
Originally posted by Miss Cinnamon
The book was written in first person and the narrator often referred to the transgendered sibling as a brother (part of the character, I guess). I was mistaken in calling her a "brother". My bad.
Ahh, I see. No problem at all.
06/02/2009
Tobi Tobi
I'm a bit late to this thread, but I want to address the point of using male pronouns in conjuction with "female" anatomy. I'm reminded of the old joke/riddle about a dad who's son gets into an accident and the dad rushes him to the hospital and the doctor there says "I can't operate, this boy is my son!" Perplexed, people would ask how such a thing was possible. And the shocking surprise was that the doctor was a woman. Of course, that's not even considering the possibility that the boy has two dads.

"His labia" is just the latest of a long line of "confusing" statements. Just as people used to get confused and not understand "She's a doctor" or "his boyfriend" or "he uses a dildo," "his labia" is one that folks are just going to have to get used to.
07/17/2009
Valyn Valyn
Quote:
Originally posted by Tobi
I'm a bit late to this thread, but I want to address the point of using male pronouns in conjuction with "female" anatomy. I'm reminded of the old joke/riddle about a dad who's son gets into an accident and the dad rushes him ... More
(Totally unrelated, so I'll keep it parenthetical, but.. Tobi- why can't I click on your name and see your profile? I looked for it too, and couldn't find it. I'm confused!)
07/17/2009
Airen Wolf Airen Wolf
Quote:
Originally posted by Victoria
First, let me say: We will absolutely support alternative pronouns and links to them. Our auto-spellchecker did not recognize the words and changed them. I apologize for the confusion, although it seems that it’s understood that is why they were ... More
I have to agree with Victoria. I had no idea that there were alternate pronouns available for those folk who prefer not to identify with specific gender...it's not too far away from the problem we poly people have when we have a "legal" spouse and yet another "non-legal" spouse. It sounds so jr. high to say my boyfriend/girlfriend to some people when referring to their significant other...and then again it just gets confusing when you have more than two significant others!
I think having these boards available to help explain to those interested what certain terms are and why they are important will go along way to promoting the type of open discussion and inclusive approach to human sexuality. Thank you Happy Lady for having the courage to begin this discussion I have learned quite a lot today about what challenges you and your partner face.
07/21/2009
Not Here Anymore f/k/a Happy Lady Not Here Anymore f/k/a Happy Lady
Quote:
Originally posted by Tobi
I'm a bit late to this thread, but I want to address the point of using male pronouns in conjuction with "female" anatomy. I'm reminded of the old joke/riddle about a dad who's son gets into an accident and the dad rushes him ... More
That's a great way of viewing this. Thank you.
07/22/2009
Not Here Anymore f/k/a Happy Lady Not Here Anymore f/k/a Happy Lady
Quote:
Originally posted by Airen Wolf
I have to agree with Victoria. I had no idea that there were alternate pronouns available for those folk who prefer not to identify with specific gender...it's not too far away from the problem we poly people have when we have a "legal" ... More
Airen,
Thank you so much for your comment. This is an issue that I see/talk about on a daily basis so it does mean a lot to me. It's interesting that our different relationships are so similar in this way.
07/22/2009
Domineight Domineight
I apologize if someone already said this, I only scanned some of the responses.

I feel that people should be able to use whatever pronouns they choose. That said, most people have never heard of the term "ze". Maybe a preface on the review explaining why you're using "ze" would both leave readers who aren't aware of trans issues less confused and imform them about it all at the same time.
01/07/2010
Domineight Domineight
Quote:
Originally posted by Domineight
I apologize if someone already said this, I only scanned some of the responses.

I feel that people should be able to use whatever pronouns they choose. That said, most people have never heard of the term "ze". Maybe a preface on the ... More
inform. oops.
01/07/2010
Hyenagirl Hyenagirl
If only English had gender-neutral pronouns, like some languages do. In the meanwhile, I suggest using whatever pronoun your partner feels comfortable with. Other than that, I go by the 'use the pronoun specific to the gender they live as' rule. Example: I know a FTM who lives as a man, so I refer to him as "he".
02/23/2010
Timaree Timaree
great idea in theory, difficult in practicality. I want to support trans people as much as possible and be inclusive linguistically. when i write on here, i try to avoid gender-specific nouns whenever possible. trying to implement new vocabulary to the general population when the sheer concept of gender fluidity is foreign to them is a real uphill battle.
08/04/2010
oliverHyde oliverHyde
I'm also coming a bit late to this thread.

Just wanted to throw in that I absolutely LOVE "ze" and "hir" as pronouns to describe myself, but I've had a difficult time using them in my reviews because they are so foreign to our language.

In my reviews I will insert a sentence of background about my gender occasionally (especially when I talk about using dildos for blow jobs) and it feels kind of awkward and REALLY repetitive... but, it's the best way I can think of to make my writing readable to a non-trans audience.

I haven't yet used "ze/hir" to describe myself because I haven't thought of a brief way to explain the terms AND my gender without completely breaking the flow of whatever I'm trying to write. But I really want to because "ze/hir" describes my gender better than just saying trans, using "their" or switching between "she" and "he". The pronoun feels right for me partially because it sounds... queer.
The words fit into my mouth strangely, but they definitely feel good. ( < - exactly how I feel about my gender; strange, misfit, but good)

My only problem with using it is that it's so queer I have to break out a dictionary every time I use it.

perhaps thats a good thing, I mean, it will help raise visibility... but it just feels too awkward when I try to write with it.
08/07/2010
BSJ BSJ
Quote:
Originally posted by Sir
I did read your entire post, I did not mean to offend you. I really wasn't in any way being offensive to you. I also wasn't saying that you questioned his gender. I was saying that you questioned pronoun-use in your reviews, because I do ... More
I will have to agree with Sir on this one. Having so many pronouns thrown into the mix causes more confusion than necessary. Tobi has it right. His labia, her cock and all of the possible combinations of body parts and pronouns. If someone is presenting themselves as a particular gender then, in my opinion, those gender appropriate pronouns should be used.

When every other new-age pronoun gets thrown into the mix the people outside of the TG world are then forced to learn yet some other nuance in their life and if they don't then they are bigots and assholes because they don't want to conform to be nicer to TG people. And that is usually completely not true what so ever.

Maybe instead of using all of this TG slang, people use the standard pronouns based on simply upon how the person presents their self. I fairly wise person taught me a principle to doing things - K.I.S.S. Keep It Simple Stupid (not saying you are stupid, just the way the acronym goes). By keeping things from becoming too convoluted and overwhelming for non-tg folks it makes it easier for them to grasp ideas and concepts associated with our daily lives.

I usually don't comment on these types of posts but I saw Sir getting pounded simply for being correct in what he stated. And as we all know, just because the majority approves of the decision, doesn't mean it's the best long term answer for everyone involved.
08/12/2010
vibrantmango vibrantmango
Quote:
Originally posted by Not Here Anymore f/k/a Happy Lady
Today I submitted a review in which I described the use of a toy on my partner who is FTM. I described using the toy during oral sex, stating:

"It is nice for rubbing the labia/clit of my female-bodied partner, as well as tease HIR ... More
I agree. The only other one I can think to suggest is "they/them/their." Though it's generally plural, it is also commonly used to describe someone who doesn't identify with male/female or woman/man. It's a good gender neutral pronoun.
02/20/2011
hjtee hjtee
I just go ahead and use the same pronoun that I use in our everyday lives. I find it extremely difficult to think of my husband in terms of 'she' (to the point where it makes my stomach turn). If people are that interested in the toy, I'm sure th+ey will take a minute to read any other reviews you've done, and figure it out on their own.

And if they don't, well, you know what they can do.
03/22/2011
Collodion Collodion
Quote:
Originally posted by Timaree
great idea in theory, difficult in practicality. I want to support trans people as much as possible and be inclusive linguistically. when i write on here, i try to avoid gender-specific nouns whenever possible. trying to implement new vocabulary to ... More
This.

I still do my damndest to include ze/hir, even when it requires breaking out the "queer dictionary" and entering into a discussion on gender fluidity...but it does get exhausting.


Also, kudos to EF for adding the words into the "accepted" list. *thumbs up*
03/22/2011
Eden C. Eden C.
It's difficult because there are several gender-neutral pronouns in the English language. However, I definitely agree that gender-neutral pronouns need to be recognized and used, not just on EF, but everywhere.
03/22/2011
UnknownGirl UnknownGirl
I've never even heard of alternate pronouns.
03/22/2011
Erotica Explorer Erotica Explorer
Quote:
Originally posted by Not Here Anymore f/k/a Happy Lady
Today I submitted a review in which I described the use of a toy on my partner who is FTM. I described using the toy during oral sex, stating:

"It is nice for rubbing the labia/clit of my female-bodied partner, as well as tease HIR ... More
These pronouns would need to very clearly be enumerated on the review page, in a banner or other "information for editors/voters" section.

Otherwise, I would be led to believe that the editor fell down on the job, and an editor might be inclined to believe that you'd made a couple of mistakes.
03/22/2011
Shellz31 Shellz31
I think it's only fair to use those pronouns. We should all feel comfortable!
I think it would be a great thing if we were all made more aware of the pronouns so we understand when reading.

Good post!
03/23/2011
jsnyder87 jsnyder87
I am also a ftm and I perfer the pronoun that goes with the gender that i am living. I am living full time as male so he and him works great for me. In terms of my parts I refer to it as a penis or micropenis my wife gave it a nickname which is ok with me. As long as it isnt clit or anything that refers to lady parts.
10/21/2012
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