TSA Pat Downs

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TSA Pat Downs

Kim! Kim!
Has anyone flown since they've started, particularly has anyone flown with children? I was just watching something and they were claiming that they do not pat down children. Fifteen minutes later there was another story about a little boy who was being patted down and shirtless. I've found numerous things online from people stating that their young children, well under 12, were patted down.

Discussion is fine but let's be respectful, as always.

I, for one, think that things are getting a bit out of hand. Some poor cancer survivor ended up covered in piss because it was so aggressive. They have not found anything either. At one point do we stop sacrificing freedoms in the name of safety?

I've spent all of this time telling my child that it is NOT acceptable for people to touch him and now, tomorrow (if we go), he could be subjected to a pat down?

Is anyone here actually doing these pat downs? Thoughts from you? I know that it isn't the highlight of anyone's day, including the agents.
11/22/2010
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El-Jaro El-Jaro
I don't have a reason to fly anywhere, but would definitely take a page from Penn and Teller if I did.
11/22/2010
Chilipepper Chilipepper
From what I understand, you are first asked to walk through the body scanner. If you refuse the body scanner, then you're patted down. (I can't afford to fly, so I won't be doing this any time soon.)

So, you have the option for your kids - having adults looking at your nude child or your children being touched by strangers (they say they won't do it to 12 and under, but last I checked 12-18 is still considered minor, too - sticky).

The director of the TSA is 'politely' advising people not to boycott the scanners, as TSA's hope was that the pat-downs would encourage people to use the scanners instead. Considering a courthouse's scanned images were released online just days ago (TSA says they don't store images like the courthouse did, but how do we know?), this is going to be an ugly holiday season at the airports.

One of my friends (who was sexually abused as a child) is so terrified of flying now because of this new policy that she's taking the train from now on.

What I don't understand is that the detection equipment was very sensitive to begin with before these body scanners - why bother to go this extra step? I do remember reading about this new scanner back in 2005 in one of the science magazines, so it has been in development for a while. My only guess is that the contract and money overrode any sense of decency and dignity. Latest polls also show that Americans don't feel any more safer than they did before.

In the end it's passengers and flight crew that end up discovering any bomb plots in flight, and everyone is ready to pummel the would-be terrorist at the drop of a hat (like the Shoe Bomber - had to go to the ER first before jail because everyone on the plane beat the shit out of him). The bloated bureaucracy of the TSA has made it impossible for the public to retain any dignity, and we are essentially told by it's director to "put up or shut up".
11/22/2010
Kim! Kim!
Quote:
Originally posted by El-Jaro
I don't have a reason to fly anywhere, but would definitely take a page from Penn and Teller if I did.
I really like that celebrities (and hopefully others are following suit) are saying that it isn't just them that they want to fight for, it's freedom in general.

Also, unfortunately, from what I've heard I don't think many are taking this view:

"We're federal employees, we're working for you, you pay us and we want customer satisfaction. It doesn't matter what the law is, we have to make you very happy so your flying experience is a pleasurable one, and most people don't give us this kind of intelligent feedback."

That woman is awesome.
11/22/2010
Kim! Kim!
Quote:
Originally posted by Chilipepper
From what I understand, you are first asked to walk through the body scanner. If you refuse the body scanner, then you're patted down. (I can't afford to fly, so I won't be doing this any time soon.)

So, you have the option for ...
Well, the director is claiming that they don't pat down children but the reports and even a video are suggesting otherwise. There might be other videos but they apparently arrested a man for taking video so people might be a bit afraid of taking them and posting them.

I think that we're opting out of the scanners. I'm not sure which is worse but knowing my son he might just yell about it. Perhaps the right person will hear and if enough incidents like that happen then maybe something will change. And yeah, scanned images potentially being saved is disturbing to say the least. They're also claiming that the high levels of radiation emitted from the machines is safe but the director even said their scientists determined this, meaning the very people that they are paying.

That was another thing that I had wondered about too, how many people are boycotting planes so that they don't have to relive something very traumatic? There aren't many ways to travel overseas so that seems rather unfair to them.

Exactly, that's what I've said about future attempts. Very few people out there will allow something as catastrophic as September 11th to happen again. We saw what happened and no one is going to stand for it. They can take all of these potential weapons away but human strength coupled with adrenaline can be pretty powerful, especially when it's a pure fight or die response. And, honestly, if someone wants to get through badly enough and they're smart enough to cause severe destruction they will find another way. Nothing can ever fully protect us.

I'm more concerned about the multiple mid-flight mechanical problems that have been in the news recently. All of this money is getting spent on these scanners but we aren't replacing the horribly out of date planes that should have been retired years ago. Sure, they're landing safely in the end but what a scary experience!
11/22/2010
Chilipepper Chilipepper
Quote:
Originally posted by Kim!
Well, the director is claiming that they don't pat down children but the reports and even a video are suggesting otherwise. There might be other videos but they apparently arrested a man for taking video so people might be a bit afraid of taking ...
Rep John Mica (from Florida) is advocating private security firms to replace TSA (mainly because these firms funded him), but the unfortunate fact is that they must practice TSA's policies and guidelines, so it'll just be more of the same.

There is already a 'half-boycott' set up in which people will refuse the scanners and hold up the lines while being patted down (starting tomorrow, I believe). This is actually more of a picketing, since it will inconvenience LOTS of people and draw attention to the situation. I suspect riots will break out at least once somewhere.

Their timing absolutely sucks (Let's announce a huge security switch weeks before a major travel holiday! That'll win us support!), and this is compounded by the director's complete lack of sympathy to the traveling public. The removal of shoes and use of detection wands can be dealt with. This invasion of boundaries is too much for human dignity to bear.
11/22/2010
Anne Ardeur Anne Ardeur
Quote:
Originally posted by Chilipepper
From what I understand, you are first asked to walk through the body scanner. If you refuse the body scanner, then you're patted down. (I can't afford to fly, so I won't be doing this any time soon.)

So, you have the option for ...
Even if you do opt for the scanners, you might still end up with the horrendously invasive 'pat-down' (really, the term is completely inadequate), if you can't hold yourself still enough for the scanner, they see something odd, etc.

I've also read reports of pregnant women and children who were willing to go through the scanner being told they had to be 'patted down' instead for safety - I believe there are now some research teams questioning the safety of the scanners as alleged by the TSA.

I have read comments from a LOT of people who will no longer be flying, because the scanners are triggering, the 'pat-downs' are triggering, safety concerns over the scanners, or some combination thereof.

Quite frankly, I think the whole thing is horrendous. I'm fortunate in that Thanksgiving is already through with here and we're not planning to go anywhere for Christmas, so I won't need to worry about the choice between potentially unsafe scanners or invasive 'pat-downs' in the immediate future. But that doesn't really help anyone else.
11/22/2010
Gunsmoke Gunsmoke
I fly a lot and I'm astounded at what the TSA does to present the 'idea' of security. About 10% of what they do adds to security - the other 90% is for show - psychological measures to convince you that are more secure.

Treating everyone as an equal risk is the basis of all TSA procedures - and it's also the reason they're so wrong. Everyone is paranoid about profiling - but it's a valid law enforcement tool that is vastly under-utilized.

I'm so hoping that the civil resistance is finally coming forth. I wish I was flying Wed - I would refuse to be scanned. I don't need the incremental radiation - I'm exposed to plenty that I can not control like dental x-rays and radiation exposure from flying. Most people don't know that they are exposed to radiation when flying - but that is a key reason the pilots are now exempt from the scanners and the invasive pat-downs.

The poor people at TSA are not going to want to deal with hundreds of irate passengers - except for those sick few who have hired just for the chance to grope travelers. Now we'll find out who the sick-ones are - hopefully they get fired!

DON'T GO THROUGH THE SCANNERS - you're act of civil disobedience will send the message that enough really is too much!
11/22/2010
El-Jaro El-Jaro
Quote:
Originally posted by Kim!
I really like that celebrities (and hopefully others are following suit) are saying that it isn't just them that they want to fight for, it's freedom in general.

Also, unfortunately, from what I've heard I don't think many are ...
The part that worries me the most: "It doesn't matter what the law is"

SCARY!

The whole thing reeks of government contracts to private security/tech companies. Why run for office when your company can get a government contract?
11/22/2010
sweet sally sweet sally
IMHO The whole thing is being blown out of proportion by tv and people that haven't flown in years.
In the past 11 months, I've flown cross country 10 x's. I've seen "pat downs/searches" happen twice. They weren't particularly agressive or invasive in nature. For someone to refuse to be scanned and then refuse the be touched is assinine. ie. the gentleman who famously said "if you touch my junk" blah, blah, blah.
Well, newsflash genius, let's just say you were trying to smuggle drugs or whatever. Where's the first place your going to hide it? That's right. Right beside your balls, so no one would think anything of a "bulge". Or in your bra if it was a female.
If you don't like it, drive.
Sorry, again, this is merely my opinion and I don't care to go into all the politics of any of it. I don't see the point of protesting on one of the busiest days of the years and disturbing others plans. It's really only going to cause problems, not solve them.
11/22/2010
Anne Ardeur Anne Ardeur
Quote:
Originally posted by sweet sally
IMHO The whole thing is being blown out of proportion by tv and people that haven't flown in years.
In the past 11 months, I've flown cross country 10 x's. I've seen "pat downs/searches" happen twice. They ...
Drug smugglers have been ingesting items and putting them in... other cavities, shall we say, for decades. And none of the current newfangled search techniques can detect anything like that. So the first place I'd look... wouldn't be in a rape survivor's bra or underwear.

Please let me know how to drive across the Atlantic Ocean - I haven't figured out that trick yet.
11/22/2010
Gunsmoke Gunsmoke
Quote:
Originally posted by sweet sally
IMHO The whole thing is being blown out of proportion by tv and people that haven't flown in years.
In the past 11 months, I've flown cross country 10 x's. I've seen "pat downs/searches" happen twice. They ...
I profoundly disagree. Like you I travel a ton and I see senior citizens and children set aside for detailed scrutiny - even ditzy teenagers talk about asinine!

I have friends who are FBI agents. Agrnts are required to travel with their firearms - and they still get hassled by the idiots at TSA. Likewise many pilots are armed and officially deputized as federal agents - they get hassled.

Everyone is not an equal risk - everyone does not deserve to be treated like a criminal. By refusing the idiot programs that exist - we're putting them on notice that they need to be more effective - without violating the 4th amendment - which forbids unreasonable searches and seizures.

We don't have to sacrifice our dignity to be safe.
11/22/2010
LicentiouslyYours LicentiouslyYours
Quote:
Originally posted by Gunsmoke
I profoundly disagree. Like you I travel a ton and I see senior citizens and children set aside for detailed scrutiny - even ditzy teenagers talk about asinine!

I have friends who are FBI agents. Agrnts are required to travel with their ...
I'd really like this to be a 4th amendment issue, but I don't think it is.

The reality is, nobody has to fly. When you buy your ticket, you enter into an agreement with the airline that gives consent to participate in these security measures. A search is not illegal if you give consent and your ticket purchase is your consent.

Don't get me wrong, I am not comfortable with the possibility of harmful radiation coming from the machines or being patted down by TSA employees (the naked imaging doesn't really concern me, honestly). I want there to be a legitimate Constitutional argument against it. But since airline travel is not mandatory and you can choose not to fly, I think there's little to be done but endure it and complain. And even then, will consumer pressure will make a big impact since at this point, all airlines are using TSA for security?
11/24/2010
Sir Sir
I think that both are idiotic, quite honestly. People will get through no matter what you do, we're just subjecting the people who have nothing wrong to stupidity.

So, do I agree with them? No.

And actually, Laurel, it is sometimes necessary to fly to certain parts of the world. That's what planes were made for - as a means to travel, yes? So why would it be a matter of, if you don't like it, don't take it? Flying should be an option available to everyone, without the unnecessary breech of privacy. The people flying are the ones who pay for their salaries, their planes, and their entire business. If the consumers do not like something, they should be changing it.

Perhaps they find it necessary, but I don't. The scanners were enough, and THOSE didn't even work. So who's to say that patting a person down will work? Just makes no sense to me..

I've said this too many times though that it's become redundant and somewhat irritating, to be fully honest.



Edit: Also, it is a breech of the 4th, reason being that you can use the same logic for other things that ARE breeches of the 4th - instead of taking a car to work, why not just walk? If you drive, you MUST subject yourself to having a police officer come into your car, and if you live at home rather than in a box, you MUST subject yourself to the SWAT team breaking into your home. Does that make sense?
11/24/2010
ToyGeek ToyGeek
I will not be flying again until they establish a non-invasive policy. None of this nonsense will stop terrorism, it's just another way to harass and humiliate people. If it actually did make planes safer, I'd feel worse about complaining, but since it actually accomplishes nothing, it's not worth the embarrassment. If I can't get where I'm going in a car, I'll stay home.
11/24/2010
Dusk Dusk
I flew yesterday, but neither me nor my partner got selected for a screening. I honestly don't care if they just take the 'naked' photos of me, I'll look a bit like a glowing alien anyway.
11/24/2010
gone77 gone77
Quote:
Originally posted by LicentiouslyYours
I'd really like this to be a 4th amendment issue, but I don't think it is.

The reality is, nobody has to fly. When you buy your ticket, you enter into an agreement with the airline that gives consent to participate in these security ...
All of this. Yes.
11/24/2010
dv8 dv8
Going Commando on the TSA: Girl Strips Naked in Security and Records It
11/24/2010
B8trDude B8trDude
TSA and the government have gone too far. I hope that the lawsuits start flying and that every TSA agent who touches someone should have charges filed against them. CPS should be called every time they touch a kid.

On a lighter note, maybe samples of lube should be sold so that passengers can hand them to the TSA agents before they get groped. As discreteness is no longer an issue for the government, the lube samples should have some very graphic pictures and instructions on them. Of course, the 4th Amendment would also be appropriate to have placed on the packaging.

Wait a minute! Maybe Tenga should start selling the eggs at airports too - passangers could hand them to the TSA people before they start twisting your taddywhacker. This might also be a way to help prevent the spread of social diseases at the hands of TSA agents
11/24/2010
CafeSabroso CafeSabroso
Quote:
Originally posted by dv8
Going Commando on the TSA: Girl Strips Naked in Security and Records It
Hahaha, she's one of my neighbors. Too funny. It is interesting that the backscatter machines were a response to last year's Christmas day "underwear bomber" and that they are unable to detect anything in body cavities. So what will the TSA response be when some would-be terrorist gets a bomb by the security checkpoint in his ass? Let's just hope that the TSA won't be able to get away with those screenings...
11/24/2010
Bunnycups Bunnycups
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

-Benjamin Franklin
11/24/2010
Chilipepper Chilipepper
Quote:
Originally posted by CafeSabroso
Hahaha, she's one of my neighbors. Too funny. It is interesting that the backscatter machines were a response to last year's Christmas day "underwear bomber" and that they are unable to detect anything in body cavities. So what will ...
Actually, the scanners have been in development since at least 2004/5 - I remember reading an article about them in a science magazine at the time. They even had photos of what the X-rays would look like.

Next logical step would be body cavity searches, as you had implied. I really can't imagine anyone willing to put up with body cavity searches in the name of 'safety'.
11/24/2010
Anne Ardeur Anne Ardeur
Adam Savage from Mythbusters apparently managed to get through one of the new scanners with two 12-inch razor blades (video of him talking about it at link).
11/25/2010
usmcwife99 usmcwife99
I am sorry but this whole issue is being blown overboard. I would think people would be more worried about being raped then a xray scanner thats there for your own saftey. Ive been patted down many times. I dont care. Its not like its a intimate gathering for hours on end. seriously its crazy how some people make a big deal. If you dont like it dont fly. You know its gonna happen.

And yes I have flown since the patdowns. I flew to be there when a friend got off the plane from Iraq. Seeing a friend for the first time in 13 monthes was well worth it.

The one thing I think people need to understand is not to get mad with the tsa officers doing the pat down. That is there job. Please dont be angry with them, by angry with the system.
11/29/2010
Total posts: 24
Unique posters: 16