Homophobia & Misogyny?

I couldn't disagree more - it's a paranoid ranting aimed at discrediting anyone who does not share his views.

What if these views do more than simply disagree with his but inhibits others from progressing in life (like advancing in a career, being able to live in a safe neighborhood, living without fear of violence or judgment). Sometimes these "rantings" are justified (and necessary)if they are to protect others that don't fit into any of our society's traditional roles.

I think you're reading this all wrong. I don't see the author of the article implying that queer people or women were incapable of horizontal discrimination. I don't think he states that either group are uniformly fair and "moral". Straight women enjoy heterosexual privilege just as queer men enjoy male privilege; both groups of people can exert oppressive force over other groups. All the author is stating is that both forms of oppression are necessarily linked. Homophobia is necessarily related to misogyny. Ex: Heterosexism/homophobi a makes reproductive intercourse privileged, which reduces women to baby-making machines. Misogyny is necessarily linked to homophobia. Ex: traditionally "feminine" expressions, actions, etc. are not valuable, so the "feminine" act of being penetrated (as a queer male might be by another male, for example) makes the queer male less valuable.

And all of the kinds of oppression that you named ARE related, and it does no disservice to anyone to bring light to that. White, heterosexual, cissexual, middle class and better, temporarily able bodied, etcetc privilege all overlap and become knotted up in one great big power structure that systematically fucks over certain groups of people. There are so many ways in which homophobia and misogyny are related. The other day a man said he couldn't respect any gay man that "took it in that ass" because that made him "weak". Here we have penetration being equated with weakness. Where does that leave the huge majority of women that engage in penetrative sex of some kind? It leaves them as "weak" and inferior. I could go on with examples forever, but I feel like I don't need to.

All forms of discrimination are unique and need to be examined in and of their own unique contexts, but it is not useful to divide oppressed groups, nor is it even logical. The same power structures oppress all of these different groups.

I'm a misogynist then, because I honestly cant stand most women. I was shunned by them in highschool. Too fat for their pecking order, and I was abused and mistreated, much moreso by women than men. I didn't wear stylish clothes, or have new shoes or wear makeup, because I never thought I needed it. I was poor, anyways. I always had guy friends that I could hang out with no matter what I looked like, even if I was having a crappy week.

In fact, when I was crying through school, when I found out my dads house was foreclosed on and he was going to leave, most of the women who found out responded "Good bitch, hurry up and leave then!" whereas the men were much more comforting.

Maybe it makes me a misogynist. Maybe it makes me a chauvinist. But I have come to strongly dislike women because every single one I talk to reminds me of that experience. It even makes me dislike myself, sometimes, when I see the horrific, gossip-spewing woman looking back at me in the mirror. So I try to eliminate those things in my own life. While I am considerably worse online, I keep to myself in real life.
I do attempt to take in aspects of everyone individually. Consistently though, I find myself leaning towards men as friends rather than women. If that makes me a misogynist so be it. I think that's gross categorization though. Thats just who I am as a person. Like I said, I judge people as individuals as much as possible, so.. eh.

Also, when my vagina formed on my body in my mother's womb, I totally missed the memo saying I have to like pink and hate video games to avoid being a misogynist. Must have slipped past me.


In any case, my own rant aside now,
I second some of Lara's views. I have been mistreated much more intensely by gay or bi men than ever by a straight man. It is not uncommon for a gay man I speak to, who is an on and off friend, to apologize and then say how disgusting women are, ex, "I'm sorry, but I really think women are so gross, and vaginas are dirty and.. just eeeuw" and call me a 'Breeder' as if my only purpose is to wrench my legs open and spit out child after child.

I've also been, with bi men who I expressed a romantic interest in, called inferior, constantly made to feel like since I can't fuck them and cum inside them, I'm worthless to them as a lover.

I'm not sure what to make of the article. It draws some interesting parallels, but I think overall it's wrong. For many of the same reasons Lara does. Fact is, people are gonna be who they are. I bet someone will read this, and take offense to the fact that I don't like most women and give me a 'lovely' name in their head. But we ALL do that. Every human on earth does that.
We just need to collectively get over what other people do. Why let it matter to you? After the millionth time of being called fat, it doesn't bother me. And my personal opinions dont make me at all abnormally rude to someone due to their sexuality or gender (despite the fact that guy/guy really grosses me out. one dick is enough plzkthx). I know some people will probably contest this but honestly I treat people the same is they are a woman or a man. The only difference is, if I get pissed off at you, the type of word I will call you. And no, I don't call people 'fag'. I grew up when "gay" meant "stupid" though and that will be a really hard thing to break. "Retarded" also always meant stupid for me in school. But hey!! It seems like soon every single word everywhere will be some kind of discrimination, and every personal preference will have some nasty word attached to it. I think girls are hot, but I'm bi, and I don't get along well with women, so I'm a bi misogynist, and oh man, I don't like watching men snog, so I bet I'm a bi homophobe too!! Oh crap I just discriminated against myself!


The thing I'm getting at is why the heck do we all care so much about what everyone else thinks about us? People will adjust or they wont. Wait a few generations. No matter what you write, or what you say, or what kind of rally you stage, or what kind of legislation you get, people either WILL change or they WONT, proof? well look, people are still racist, people still discriminate against women, and those are things we are supposed to 'be past' as a country.

I think if one day people woke up and just decided to care a little bit less about what other people thought and a little bit more about making themselves happy, the world would be a better place. A much better place.

Get your legislation and write your articles and make your points. But realize that there are some things you can't change and that you have no right to change. Unless someone is hurting you or harassing you (which are both against the law anyways, for any reason) they should have the freedom to think whatever they want. God forbid they ever start focusing on lust cause I'd go to jail with how many times I've thought "Oh god the things I'd do to him/her". And when you get down to it, seeing as the other things are already protected, insisting everyone just magically be okay with you/your sexuality/your race/your religion etc overnight, really is thought policing. They have the right to like and dislike who they want.

I think it's neither fair nor particularly polite to say that I'm "reading this all wrong." I simply pointed to an issue Dr. Dick didn't include. The article is no worse for its absence and it was something that came to mind while I was reading.

By means of providing some additional background on why this came up while reading the article... When I read something like "I contend that homophobia is rooted in a fear and hatred of women," my first inclination is to think "so what?" While it's well-written, I don't see Dr. Dick's article as saying anything new. We've heard about male privilege before, we've heard about misogyny before, and we've heard about homophobia before. There's lots of linkages and Dr Dick is neither the first nor the last to point them out.

Do what you will with this, but I simply don't find it useful to talk about things like language and power structures and on and on and on outside of a purely academic context. Yes, I've read Foucault. Yes, I understand the philosophical debates. But again... so what? To bitch and moan about how we're being oppressed by The Man is all well and good and understanding the the underlying dynamics is the stuff that many university faculties are made of, but it's not something that grabs my imagination. (not a value judgment... just articulating a preference)

I'm glad that you have read Foucault, but name dropping aside, none of what I said was very "academic". In fact, it was pretty plebeian, as the author of the article clearly illustrated. Oppression via harassment, assault, rape, fear-mongering, job discrimination, marriage rights, healthcare rights and so many other things are about as real and concrete as it gets. I think you'd find yourself hard-pressed to make those things "academic". I have been raped. This isn't academic. I have been jumped and beaten up for being outed as queer in high school. That's not academic. I am continually harassed, denied opportunities and legal protection because I am female and queer. This is not academic.

I think it's pretty sad that another woman will tell me that I'm "bitching and moaning" when I express my outrage at these things. I also think it's strange that
because I am acknowledging and building upon a legacy of knowledge and activism through my "academic language" --a legacy that I am indebted to-- I am also patronized for that. I find both of these things thoroughly depressing. I think it's sad that when another woman (finally! after so many centuries of being denied it) is lucky enough to be able to educate herself in a university, there is a woman out there willing and able to shame her and make her feel foolish for being informed. I think it's sad that when people get duly outraged at the state of our world people roll their eyes and say (verbatim) "so what?" And use patronizing terms like "The Man" to refer to a system of power that is actually killing women, queers, poor people, trans people, etcetcetc. As if it's all a joke.

Finally, you're assuming everyone has the privilege of university education. Or even just the leisure time to educate themselves about things like "male privilege". You're assuming these are understood and well known concepts. They are not in my experience, but clearly we travel in different circles. And perhaps you have the luxury of looking at power imbalance in western society as a theoretical or "academic" matter, but I certainly don't. I don't have the privilege of impartiality, and a large number of people across the world do not have that privilege either.

High school sucked for almost everyone, even the girls who made it hell for you. The further you get away from your high school years, the more you'll realize that none of those people or their opinions matter. But, if every woman reminds you of the girls at school and that makes you hate them, then it's something you need to deal with.

It doesn't make you a misogynist to have more male friends than female friends. What makes you a misogynist is choosing to have male friends over female friends because of a hatred for women. Just like it would make you a homophobe to choose straight friends over gay friends based on their sexual orientation, or a racist to pick friends because of the color of their skin.

There is no rule that says girls must like pink and wear frilly skirts. But when women go on and on about how much they are not girly(i.e. I hate pink, and skirts and anything girly!...), and brag about the manly things they can do (i.e. video games, football, car repair...) in an attempt to be accepted by men it's misogyny. You're downplaying your feminine qualities and insulting things that you assume all other women like in order to make yourself appear more masculine. What makes you feel like you need to do that is misogyny.

Now for the rest of your post, it's important to worry because it's not just something people say. It's not just people thinking what they want to think. People are hanging on to their prejudiced opinions, based on stereotypes, instead of challenging themselves about them. It's institutionalized and affects everyone's ability to thrive in our society. Job and college applications get skipped over when applicants have names that "sound too black". People get written up at work when they're ''acting too gay''. Women get fired or denied jobs because they might get pregnant, are pregnant or have kids. It happens all the time! Yes, we have affirmative action, but HR people are trained in what not to say in an interview to save the company's behind from being sued for discrimination.

The company my husband works for just had to have a meeting to train their employees on how to handle transgender situations correctly. People were getting fired because they came to the job interview as 'Bob' and showed up at work after being hired as 'Jane' and they had to fix it before they got sued. That is very wrong. We shouldn't have to threaten to sue companies for discrimination in order to get them to see the potential in every worker and applicant. That is why it's so important to talk about this stuff. That is why it's imperative that we change it, to strive for equality.

I believe you missed the part where I said I judge people individually as much as possible. No, its not that I force that image onto them. It's that we get close and then the girl starts being a bitch to me just like those girls. Maybe I just need older friends, but in my age range we're still all living that life. I give everyone a chance regardless of my prior experiences with that group.

And yes it's important to talk. But the only thing that will fix it is time and laws. And yes, lawsuits. Because nobody wants to change. NOBODY. I can guarantee you, were it not for monetary repercussions not one of those people who discriminate would ever admit they are wrong. I get skipped over in interviews because I'm not pretty enough all the time. I know how it is. They want some cute, oh so exploitable woman with a nice butt who can be eye candy for the male patrons, at just about every store, especially clothing stores.

But even as someone who's been on that end of discrimination, even as someone who's mother OUTRIGHT DENIES that I am bisexual and refuses to accept it, even though she just screams EW EW EW GROOOOSSSS every time something vaguely girl/girl comes on the tv (she watches Maury and court shows) I have learned that you cannot force people to change

If you try, they will retaliate and make things worse for the party they were focusing on. The best thing to do is get some legislation in place and do your best to succeed despite their BS so that you can then be in a higher position when you are older, and you can offer a more accepting hand to the newer generation.

Not that all gays, bis, or transgender people are more accepting. Not by far, I've detailed my experience with that in the post above. But we're trying to be idealized here, and despite my experiences I know not every girl, not every bi person, not every gay person, and not every transgender person is mean. I know that, and I still give everyone a chance.