Negotiated Infidelity as seen on Dr. Phil

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Negotiated Infidelity as seen on Dr. Phil

sasweetheart89 sasweetheart89
Ok, this is going to be long, but its worth it!

So I was just catching up on the Dr. Phil episodes that I taped on my dvr (I don't ever like to miss that show- I've even got the hubby hooked, tho he'll never admit it!) And the episodes that aired on October 28th and 29th were very interesting to me.

It was a two-episode story of a man who had been habitually cheating on his wife and getting caught with the same woman over the course of 5 YEARS! Basically, he is proposing the idea to his wife of an open marriage and she is not down with it. She married him and had his kids wanting and expecting a life-long monogamous relationship and she's not about to settle for "half a husband" (as Dr. Phil puts it). His idea of his proposed arrangement is that he would live with his wife and kids, spend a good amount/majority of the time with them, but basically whenever he felt like it, he could go spend time with his "girlfriend" and have a romantic and emotional relationship with her, too.

“What man would not want to have a wife and a girlfriend?” Scott asks. "It would be like having two different cars. You have a weekend car and a weekday car.”
“So [Chrissy] could run the house and take care of the kids, and then this other woman you would have for sex, and outings, and travel and that sort of thing..." asks Dr. Phil.

The guy has been lying to both of them, saying that he is not having sex with the other, even though he is having unprotected sex with both, but I guess in his perfect scenario they would both know and not care that he was having sex with them both. His kids also know that their daddy has a girlfriend and the kids have asked him to stop seeing her and to pay more attention to mommy, so that is clearly unhealthy. The wife has begged the other woman to leave her husband alone and break it off (as it was first a long distance relationship), only to find out that the other woman moved from a different state to be closer to her husband!

This guy was really acting like a jerk through all of this, with really rude comments such as something like- I don't know who I love more, my wife or my girlfriend, because there are different types of loves, like how you can love a person or love a dog... So it makes it really easy for me to side with the wife and say this negotiating infidelity thing is ridiculous. But then a woman comes on the show whose pen name is Holly Hill, author of SugarBabe who has a very different perception.

Holly Hill thinks that a mistress can save a marriage because sometimes a man has needs that his wife can not or will not fulfill. (It bothered me that she was only referencing male needs that women don't fulfill and not the possibility of the other way around. grrr.) So in her opinion, it would be beneficial for the marriage for the woman to agree to let her husband be with another woman in whichever way he needed so that his needs would be satisfied and it would not be considered cheating because she agreed to it. I think her point was that the divorce rate is so high and the main reason for divorce due to infidelity is not the act itself, but rather the deception, lying, lack of trust, etc. and not that he actually slept with someone else. So if the infidelity was agreed to, there would be less hurt, pain, and ultimately, divorce.

I honestly don't know what I think about this, I mean, I have opinions for sure, but not necessarily a particular stance on the issue one way or the other. What does everyone here think? Could negotiated infidelity save a marriage? Is it healthy for the marriage or should the couple just work on it between themselves? What if one party is not willing to do some of the things that the other needs to be satisfied, even if it is just a matter of frequency, but their relationship is otherwise good- should the one person just be sexually frustrated, or should they cheat or just get a divorce straightaway, or is this a viable option? What are the consequences of each?
11/03/2010
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Naughty Student Naughty Student
Quote:
Originally posted by sasweetheart89
Ok, this is going to be long, but its worth it!

So I was just catching up on the Dr. Phil episodes that I taped on my dvr (I don't ever like to miss that show- I've even got the hubby hooked, tho he'll never admit it!) And the ...
I don't see anything wrong with polygomous relationships, perhaps it might work. If the lady (Chrissy?) isn't willing to agree with the negotiation then they will have to find another way of working things out.

What I find very cool is that Holly Hill came and gave a different perspective, that of having wife and girlfriend, which could sort of be eye-opening for some people.

If they both value their relatonship they should both work at a compramise, where both are satisfied.

I hope Airen sees this post, she could be quite insightful about this due to her life experiences.
11/03/2010
sasweetheart89 sasweetheart89
Quote:
Originally posted by Naughty Student
I don't see anything wrong with polygomous relationships, perhaps it might work. If the lady (Chrissy?) isn't willing to agree with the negotiation then they will have to find another way of working things out.

What I find very cool is ...
I definitely don't see anything wrong with polygamous relationships either, as a matter of fact I was intrigued by the show "Sister Wives" where the family lives as polygamous Mormons with one husband and four wives very happily! I personally don't think these people should be arrested for polygamy because they are just leading their lives and raising happy, healthy children and I think that if that is how they want to express their love, that is fine! (But that's a completely separate matter) I do think it is a problem, though, in a situation like on Dr. Phil because when the Sister Wives' original couple met, they married with the knowledge that this would be their lifestyle. It is unfair for Chrissy that her husband is just throwing this at her after committing to a monogamous relationship.
11/03/2010
Waterfall Waterfall
I do not think that there is anything wrong with an open relationship. However, in this case, everyone is not on the same page and there are mixed feelings which is causing problems. Maybe everyone in this situation needs to have a meeting together so that they can discuss their futures.
11/03/2010
Airen Wolf Airen Wolf
Quote:
Originally posted by sasweetheart89
I definitely don't see anything wrong with polygamous relationships either, as a matter of fact I was intrigued by the show "Sister Wives" where the family lives as polygamous Mormons with one husband and four wives very happily! I ...
First of all let's clear the air here...what he is proposing is polyAMORY not polygamy. Polygamy is the practice wherein a man marries more than one woman. Generally the women are sisters at the dinner table (though not necesarily related by blood) and there is no group sex dynamic. It is also, usually, a religious choice. The women are not allowed to seek other men or have an outside relationship with another man.
Polyandry would be the opposite though in the form it's most often practiced the woman marries all the sons of a family, again it is a religious choice or a lack of women (most frequently) and there is no group sex dynamic. The men are also not afforded the right to seek other females.
Polyamory is the practice of having more than one ~committed~ relationship at the same time. There are so many permutations of polyamory in practice that even polyamorists cannot adequately define the parameters. There can be no group sex dynamic and there could be LOTS of group sex. It depends on the participants in the relationship.
An open marriage means the participants are agreeing that each partner may have lovers who do not become part of the family dynamic or short term affairs. The couple may also "swing" in an open relationship and a polyamorist relationship.
This would be why I tell people that I am part of a polyamorist triad and ALSO have an open marriage. Our triad is the family part (for us) and the others are playmates until the decision is made to invite them to be more. This is all up front BEFORE any hearts are on the line, so to speak. We do not cheat and have no reason to lie to each other; Sigel, Arch and I. We do not condone cheating and demand honesty from any person before we play.
From my understanding about this show (understand I do not respect Dr. Phil nor do I respect his world view. I don't expect everyone to feel the same way I do and I mean no disrespect those who may feel Dr. Phil has helped them.) this was a cheating dog who got caught and THEN decided he was polyamorous. I call bullshit. He knew after the second time he was caught he loved this other woman but chose to continue lying to each of his loves. This is a cheater not a polyamorist. Do I believe this guy should have his cake and eat it too? Sure! Why not? Ummmm because his wife isn't interested in what he's offering. He has a choice, either abide by the boundaries he can negotiate with his wife or leave her entirely. Ethically and morally he has no other choice.
Do I think polyamory can work? Hell yes I do, I am living proof that it can work. Negotiated infidelity, or as I like to put it: redefining what fidelity means to us, saved our marriage and our lives. I've been pretty honest on this forum and on Eden Cafe about that. The difference between our relationship and this couple's (triple's?) is I wanted my husband to be happy and I enjoy watching him with other women. I enjoy hearing about how much fun he had with a playmate and I wish he could find a woman who wasn't so hell bent on making him monogamous! Sigel feels the same way and knows what a prize we have in Arch.
Meh, they call women like what I'm talking about Unicorns for a reason! I got my unicorn in Arch and if we are blessed with another then WOW will we be one happy polyamorous family. LOL
You are totally correct sasweetheart89 it isn't fair of him to commit to a monogamous marriage and then say he's changed his mind...but he's human, as humans we DO change our minds. Do I believe he went into the marriage intending to be fidelitous? I dunno only he knows that but he did know his wife was intending to be faithful and he should have honored the original vows or negotiated to change the agreements, HONESTLY. What he did by using polyamory as an excuse or a way to have it all is wrong and unfair. This is not what happened in my relationship though...we learned about polyamory after we had committed to our relationship with Arch and opened our marriage. We learned about polyamory because we were looking for a word to call what we had.
As far as the kids begging Daddy to spend his time with Mom...SHAME on Mom for using her children this way! Maybe she doesn't lean on them and maybe they feel her sorrow from afar but I sincerely doubt that. My children are in the trenches WITH us and they very rarely know when things get unbalanced between their father's and I. We save our adult dealings for when they won't be affected by it as much as possible and so should she. She needs to pull herself up and make a decision. Either live with the fact that her husband loves her and loves another woman or leave and try to find someone who can give her the monogamy she desires. If she decides to live with it she can negotiate some boundaries and time management to be sure she gets her fair share of his time and attention. These are her only choices if she wants to get her children off the battlefield. Then again if she was interested in leaving the battlefield she wouldn't be on tv airing her dirty laundry to strangers.
11/03/2010
Brandi Rouxxx Brandi Rouxxx
Simply put, yes, this type of relationship CAN work with the right people, but it is not for everyone. If this is the type of relationship someone desires, they need to be upfront and honest about it BEFORE committing to a marriage and having a family.
11/03/2010
DONOTSHOPHERETHEOWNERISPSYCHO DONOTSHOPHERETHEOWNERISPSYCHO
Quote:
Originally posted by Airen Wolf
First of all let's clear the air here...what he is proposing is polyAMORY not polygamy. Polygamy is the practice wherein a man marries more than one woman. Generally the women are sisters at the dinner table (though not necesarily related by ...
All great points Airen. I just wanted to point out that the kids found out through their friends, not their parents. Mom was friends with their friends mothers, which isn't unusual, and talked to them about what was going on. The mothers decided they didn't want their kids exposed to that sort of thing so they told their kids they couldn't go hang out at their house because so and so's daddy had a girlfriend.

That said, poly can certainly work, but not when the primary relationship is as damaged as this one was. The wife was hurt because of the cheating and did not want to share her husband. It wasn't what she agreed to, and all the parties must agree for poly to work. The husband was a cheating, lying assholes who just wanted to have a wife at home to raise the kids and do the house wife duties. He wanted to step outside and get his sexual and emotional fulfillment from his mistress, despite still sleeping with his wife and telling her how much he loved her. He was lying to both women the entire time. Polyamory doesn't work without openness, honesty, boundaries and agreements. They had none of this.

Even Holly Hill was saying that she absolutely disagreed with what was going on. She said it was cheating, not negotiated infidelity. I didn't really like the whole 'men have needs' spiel, because women have the same freaking needs and no one ever considers that when the topic of affairs is on the table. We always point fingers at the wife for not fulfilling her husbands needs, never asking what he wasn't doing for his wife.

But... she pointed out that negotiated infidelity was simply that. You have a discussion about your needs and compromise on them. It could be allowing them to have a dirty magazine, porn, visit strip clubs or anything you felt comfortable with to meet 'needs' you were unwilling or unable to fulfill. It was just completely out in the open in your relationship. It can work, yes, but that requires everyone to be 100% okay with it and honest about it. Relationships are about compromising and you do what works for yours.
11/03/2010
Blinker Blinker
I would take any advice "Holly Hill" offers with a grain of salt. She's an ex-hooker with Daddy issues trying to get women to buy her book by not-so-subtly blaming them for their husbands' infidelity.

I agree with what Airen said: this isn't someone who is polyamorous, this is someone who got caught with another woman and is trying to find a way to eat his cake or pussy or whatever.
11/03/2010
namelesschaos namelesschaos
Quote:
Originally posted by Blinker
I would take any advice "Holly Hill" offers with a grain of salt. She's an ex-hooker with Daddy issues trying to get women to buy her book by not-so-subtly blaming them for their husbands' infidelity.

I agree with what Airen ...
Agreed, I wouldn't trust Holly Hill as a source on poly relationships. For one thing the very term :negotiation infidelity" is an oxymoron and at best muddies the water and a t worse reinforces the very things it tries to break from. Charlie Glickman had a good post on this: link
11/03/2010
Alicia Alicia
The way I see it this is cheating and not polyamory. If the wife isn't ok with it and he's being deceptive then that is cheating.

I don't see the sex or romance as the issue, the issue is the deception. Clearly his wife is NOT cool with this and so he's been lying to both women..maybe it's just me but I don't think that you can routinely lie to someone about something like this and then claim to love with them. It's just bullshit.
11/03/2010
Airen Wolf Airen Wolf
Quote:
Originally posted by DONOTSHOPHERETHEOWNERISPSYCHO
All great points Airen. I just wanted to point out that the kids found out through their friends, not their parents. Mom was friends with their friends mothers, which isn't unusual, and talked to them about what was going on. The mothers decided ...
OMG with friends like that who needs enemas? I can understand not wanting your kids exposed to a family in crisis but for fuck's sake.

I was one of those women that people pointed at and said "if she wasn't so fat, lazy or stupid she could satisfy her man and he'd stay at home" problme was our sex life has ALWAYS been the stuff of legends (no one believed me when I said we had sex ALL the time!) I was adventurous but I wouldn't sleep with men he picked at random...because I was a good girl. The old wheeze that his needs aren't being met is bullshit.

I agree that relationships are about compromise but I'd add that they are about carving out a relationship that works for you and your partner(s) not bowing to the demands of a society hell bent on self destruction. It's about building a place that is unique and YOURS not about a one size fits all cookie cutter model. It's about honestly knowing your needs and what it will take to satisfy them, and allowing the significant others in your life to shoulder this responsibility for themselves. It's about being proud of where you are and what you've achieved, and not being threatened by other people's choices. It's about freedom, the freedom to be the person you are meant to be and the courage to allow others to self-actualize without judgement. Now THAT takes courage, honesty and compromise!
11/05/2010
Airen Wolf Airen Wolf
Quote:
Originally posted by namelesschaos
Agreed, I wouldn't trust Holly Hill as a source on poly relationships. For one thing the very term :negotiation infidelity" is an oxymoron and at best muddies the water and a t worse reinforces the very things it tries to break from. Charlie ...
Negotiated infidelity isn't infidelity by it's very definition. You have negotiated and set boundaries that's just good relationship dynamics. It's up to the people in the relationship to decide what negotiations are needed and set their own unique boundaries. If group sex works for you then great! If you want a monogamous relationship where even porn is considered cheating good for you!
11/05/2010
Dame Demi Dame Demi
Quote:
Originally posted by sasweetheart89
Ok, this is going to be long, but its worth it!

So I was just catching up on the Dr. Phil episodes that I taped on my dvr (I don't ever like to miss that show- I've even got the hubby hooked, tho he'll never admit it!) And the ...
Yay--attempting to post from my phone just wasted an hour of my time, but mercifully spared those reading this thread. Summary: I believe it can be the best solution in some marriages, especially those that were not 100% conventiaonal all along. I would have gladly tried it, and I think we could have found a way to satisfy his needs without compromising my needs as a wife.

That's my theory, anyway. Unfortunately, we never got a chance to test it. They only included me in their negotiations when I agreed to something they wanted.

If there's enough love and trust, I think it's a viable option. Just make sure the right parties are negotiating the right terms.
11/05/2010
Dame Demi Dame Demi
Btw, was anyone else incredibly amused by the "What man would not want to have a wife and a girlfriend?" quote. Throughout the entire four years of my non-negotiably-obstens ively-poly-because-it- makes-at-least-two-of- us-look-better-cluster fuck, the recurring question that seemed to reverberate around the whole mess was "Why the hell would any man in his right mind actually want a relationship with more than one woman??!"

When I'm able to look past the whole 'my entire life is falling down around me in flaming ruins and I cannot stop it' aspect of the situation, the assumptions people make versus the reality of the situation are so incredibly wrong it's almost surreal. If I were an observer, I wonder if I would have been more amused by the way people reacted to the "Wait...you're still married, he's living with her for free and still supporting you, but you're NOT having sex with him?" realization, or my "Do you actually believe I'm still having sex with him?" gape of incredulous DUH-ness.

The best irony came right around the middle of it all when we were both constantly demanding his attention and pressuring him to make a decision, and neither one of us would have sex with him until he broke it off with the other. Everyone assumed he wanted to have his cake and eat it too. That's how men are. Nobody realized all the bakeries were closed, the little mini-mart that might possibly have had a stale cupcake had burnt down, and the crops that year had all been devoured by locusts. All the difficulties of two relationships with few of the benefits.

If you find yourself in this sort of shit and want to vent on TV, just go duke it out on Springer; Dr. Phil is in way over his head.
11/05/2010
sasweetheart89 sasweetheart89
Wow, thanks for all the interesting and well thought out posts! It's really interesting for me to hear all of your points from different perspectives from people with different-that-mainstr eam lifestyles.

Sarahbear, it seems like you saw the episode too, did you?

Dame Demi, you make me lol. thats all.
11/05/2010
Dame Demi Dame Demi
Quote:
Originally posted by sasweetheart89
Wow, thanks for all the interesting and well thought out posts! It's really interesting for me to hear all of your points from different perspectives from people with different-that-mainstr eam lifestyles.

Sarahbear, it seems like you saw ...
I try.
11/07/2010
bzzingbee bzzingbee
Quote:
Originally posted by Airen Wolf
First of all let's clear the air here...what he is proposing is polyAMORY not polygamy. Polygamy is the practice wherein a man marries more than one woman. Generally the women are sisters at the dinner table (though not necesarily related by ...
I agree with everything you said Airen (including your feelings about Dr. Phil)! I think it would be difficult to put it any better than you did!
11/07/2010
BBW Talks Toys BBW Talks Toys
Polyamory wouldn't work in our marriage. We're too jealous by nature and there would be resentment all the way around. I think the only way we could truly ever have another lover, would be to include her (because he wouldn't want another guy and frankly, neither would I) in our bedroom play as a couple. But even that is more than what I think our marriage can handle.

Sounds like this wife is like me and when her husband said "Forsaking all others..." she expected him to abide by that.

Any major changes in the dynamic of a marriage should be well-discussed... INTO the ground... before they happen. She obviously doesn't want an open marriage and he just needs to make a choice and stop being the chicken that he is (since he's too chicken to admit to having sex with another woman until he was caught).

that's just MHO.
11/10/2010
DONOTSHOPHERETHEOWNERISPSYCHO DONOTSHOPHERETHEOWNERISPSYCHO
Quote:
Originally posted by sasweetheart89
Wow, thanks for all the interesting and well thought out posts! It's really interesting for me to hear all of your points from different perspectives from people with different-that-mainstr eam lifestyles.

Sarahbear, it seems like you saw ...
I did see it. It made me hug my husband and thank him for not being a douchebag during our issues last year.
11/10/2010
ToyGeek ToyGeek
This kind of thing depends on the individuals involved, so I'm sure that for some people, it would work, but if it's just going to allow the guy to treat two different women like possessions, then yuck. Cars? Dogs? This dude doesn't deserve either woman, especially with the lying and the unprotected sex.
11/10/2010
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