A place for comments to the editors/on the editing?

Contributor: Petite Valentine Petite Valentine
For the second time in 12 hours I've encountered a review that has appalling spelling and grammar errors. One had a glaring misspelling and total breakdown of grammar in the summary alone. (I won't address comma usage since some people feel that is grammar-nazism.)

On both reviews I left a comment because I don't like to leave ratings below useful without an explanation (please note, I judged them on content, not grammar). However, I've also handed out two "poor" ratings to editors and I wish there was a public place to state why.

My reasons for wanting it public are:

1. If the editor responds that his or her changes were undone by the reviewer, everyone should know that. It's not fair for readers to rate an editor on something that is not their doing.

2. If some readers are giving an editor an "excellent" vote for the same review I'm giving a "poor" vote, then something is wrong and I think the best way to solve it is to have an area for discussion of the editing.

This is the criteria EF provides for voting on editing:
If you found no errors while reading, the editor did an 'excellent' job. If you found one error or a few areas that were questionable, but overall the review was well read, the editor did a 'good' job. If you found two or more obvious errors, the editor did a 'poor' job.

The review I just marked poor had "it was not faltering on me" in the summary. Without doubt that should have been "flattering" — so at least one mistake, there were more — yet two people have rated the editing as "excellent" so far.
04/01/2012
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Contributor: Kindred Kindred
Quote:
Originally posted by Petite Valentine
For the second time in 12 hours I've encountered a review that has appalling spelling and grammar errors. One had a glaring misspelling and total breakdown of grammar in the summary alone. (I won't address comma usage since some people feel ... more
I would prefer there not be a place for public discussion over the editing. I would want to avoid a potential he said/she said scenario between the editor and reviewer. Personally, I message the editor directly if I find minor mistakes. If I think the editor did a terrible job, I simply email Sammi a link of the review, outline all of the mistakes I think are present and let Sammi investigate and decide who is at fault.
04/01/2012
Contributor: Petite Valentine Petite Valentine
Quote:
Originally posted by Kindred
I would prefer there not be a place for public discussion over the editing. I would want to avoid a potential he said/she said scenario between the editor and reviewer. Personally, I message the editor directly if I find minor mistakes. If I think ... more
You make a good point about the potential of a he said/she said scenario between the editor and reviewer.

However, I must respectfully disagree about sending notes to editors. You get only one side of the story in that scenario.

Emailing Sammi is an option, but it seems extreme to involve in admin. Then again, what I've seen in the last day has been pretty bad.

What would you say to edit-voting being a two step process? For example, if you vote "good" or "poor," a second prompt, instead of the confirm vote prompt, appears asking you to check off one or all of the following: grammar errors, misspellings, inaccuracies, etc., which in turn would show in the results:
(example)
2 Excellent
1 Good - misspellings
3 Good - grammar errors
04/01/2012
Contributor: js250 js250
Message the editor as well, sometimes things can get overlooked when they are editing a review. This will allow time for them to re-edit the review. I know I have missed a couple of typos, I saw what was supposed to be there vs. the actual misspelling. Part of my ADD. Good luck!!
04/01/2012
Contributor: Kindred Kindred
Quote:
Originally posted by Petite Valentine
You make a good point about the potential of a he said/she said scenario between the editor and reviewer.

However, I must respectfully disagree about sending notes to editors. You get only one side of the story in that scenario. ... more
I email the editor only when I think the mistake is honest and minor, like a minor typo.

Emailing Sammi is not extreme because she can determine if the editor is doing an adequate job and whether or not they should remain an editor. Unless people report to her terrible editing, she has no way to assess performance. She can also investigate whether or not it was the editor or potentially the reviewer that made the changes. Multiple complaints of the same editor are unlikely to be all due to the reviewers.

I also think voting on editing is already unnecessary and unreliable. I would prefer to not make it even more complicated. As you already cited, most people will vote excellent when clearly there are errors present. People either vote out of friendship or truly lack an understanding of what is correct grammar. Either way, the vote as is currently in place does little to measure performance in my opinion.
04/01/2012
Contributor: TheSinDoll TheSinDoll
I didn't know that emailing Sammi was an option, thanks Kindred. I literally just ran across a review that was so riddled with typos - I was shocked to see that the editor had received an 'excellent' vote. I really didn't want to say anything about the editor's poor job under the reviewer's comments.

I've also been doing some follow-up reviews and have noticed typos. I wonder why those weren't caught by the people who edited my reviews. Of course - I should have caught them, but since I didn't - they definitely should have. It makes us both look bad. It's too late to change it now, but it makes me wonder.

Here's another question... How'd Kindred get so smart?
04/01/2012
Contributor: Kindred Kindred
Quote:
Originally posted by TheSinDoll
I didn't know that emailing Sammi was an option, thanks Kindred. I literally just ran across a review that was so riddled with typos - I was shocked to see that the editor had received an 'excellent' vote. I really didn't want to say ... more
I'm no genius, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.
04/01/2012
Contributor: Sammi Sammi
I appreciate if people email me when they find reviews that are poorly edited - contacting me about a badly edited review shouldn't be considered extreme. As Kindred said above, it helps me assess performance, and if editors are not doing an adequate job, they will be contacted about the errors and, after warnings, removed from the rotation early.

If you find one poorly edited, just send me a link to the review and I'm happy to take a look at it You can either send me an insystem message, or email me at sammi@edenfantasys.com .
04/01/2012
Contributor: Beck Beck
I happen to know that I am one of those editors that you are talking about. Seriously, some of the reviews we are sent are really bad. And simple errors that were called out like "genitals" and "gentiles" are easily missed when we get reviews that are like the following.

Im serioulsey escited aboeut who awsomme ti is.

I get some reviews that I have to edit every other word. Not all of us are great at grammar and all of us are not required to be. If there is a really bad issue with it email Sammi. And not to mention some of us had reading is disorders and other learning disorders that stop us from being great at things. Sorry but it is more appropriate to email or message someone about the issue and not fill the comments bashing the editor. Which is what was done on the review I edited. I really did not appreciate that.
04/01/2012
Contributor: Sammi Sammi
Quote:
Originally posted by Kindred
I'm no genius, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.
You are, and did they have a pool?
04/01/2012
Contributor: Kindred Kindred
Quote:
Originally posted by Beck
I happen to know that I am one of those editors that you are talking about. Seriously, some of the reviews we are sent are really bad. And simple errors that were called out like "genitals" and "gentiles" are easily missed when we ... more
I don't know nor do I want to comment on the example you cite. However, you always have the option to send the review back to the reviewer for edits if there are so many and they are so egregious. Your job is not to completely rehabilitate reviews but to correct minor errors that the writer missed.
04/01/2012
Contributor: Kindred Kindred
Quote:
Originally posted by Sammi
You are, and did they have a pool?
No pool but I did have a danish!
04/01/2012
Contributor: Sammi Sammi
Quote:
Originally posted by Beck
I happen to know that I am one of those editors that you are talking about. Seriously, some of the reviews we are sent are really bad. And simple errors that were called out like "genitals" and "gentiles" are easily missed when we ... more
If a review is really bad, I would send it back to the writer as Revision Required, and request they check it for spelling before resubmitting it.
04/01/2012
Contributor: Beck Beck
Quote:
Originally posted by Kindred
I don't know nor do I want to comment on the example you cite. However, you always have the option to send the review back to the reviewer for edits if there are so many and they are so egregious. Your job is not to completely rehabilitate ... more
I know that, but I have never had one send one back, so I try not to do this.
04/01/2012
Contributor: Petite Valentine Petite Valentine
Quote:
Originally posted by Beck
I happen to know that I am one of those editors that you are talking about. Seriously, some of the reviews we are sent are really bad. And simple errors that were called out like "genitals" and "gentiles" are easily missed when we ... more
I think a review in that condition should not be any editor's responsibility. I would fix maybe the first few sentences (to serve as an example) then send it back to the reviewer, or forward it to an administrator as unsalvageable.

"Not all of us are great at grammar and all of us are not required to be"

I agree, which is why there are three ratings: excellent, good, and poor. You can still have errors and receive a positive (good) rating.

And not to mention some of us had reading is disorders and other learning disorders that stop us from being great at things.

I'm sorry, but editors are doing a job for EF for which they are being compensated. Some people may have to work harder and longer than others because they have difficulties, but it does not excuse them from doing the job.

Sorry but it is more appropriate to email or message someone about the issue and not fill the comments bashing the editor.

Not everyone wants to start a PM exchange over a review, and as I mentioned earlier, there is no guarantee that what is said in PMs is completely accurate. It would be very easy for the person contacted to cast blame on the other party with no one the wiser.

I stopped leaving error-fix comments because my poll feedback indicated that many reviewers took that behavior in a negative way. However, that poll also indicated that the majority of the community feels reviews should be voted in the condition they are found. "Poor" is the condition in which I found the two reviews which prompted this thread. But that rating is a comment on the editing, it never was meant to be a personal attack on you or any editor.

The same is true for the comments. I think the errors pointed out by another reader have proven a necessary evil because one review has been fixed, and while that is great for EF, the reviewer and the editor, it makes those of us who voted on what was originally published look like belligerent downvoters to the community. The quoted passages in the comments show that we had reason to vote the way we did.
04/01/2012
Contributor: Ansley Ansley
Quote:
Originally posted by Beck
I know that, but I have never had one send one back, so I try not to do this.
That really should be the last thought you have when you're editing the review. If they don't send it back, that's unfortunate but there will be other reviews to edit.
04/04/2012
Contributor: Breas Breas
Quote:
Originally posted by Kindred
I would prefer there not be a place for public discussion over the editing. I would want to avoid a potential he said/she said scenario between the editor and reviewer. Personally, I message the editor directly if I find minor mistakes. If I think ... more
I agree with this. I could see things turning nasty if there was public discussion about it.
04/04/2012
Contributor: P'Gell P'Gell
Quote:
Originally posted by TheSinDoll
I didn't know that emailing Sammi was an option, thanks Kindred. I literally just ran across a review that was so riddled with typos - I was shocked to see that the editor had received an 'excellent' vote. I really didn't want to say ... more
Here's another question... How'd Kindred get so smart?

I know, he's a doggie doctor! (And a kitteh doctor, and a bunny doctor etc etc etc etc.)
04/04/2012
Contributor: P'Gell P'Gell
Quote:
Originally posted by Kindred
I don't know nor do I want to comment on the example you cite. However, you always have the option to send the review back to the reviewer for edits if there are so many and they are so egregious. Your job is not to completely rehabilitate ... more
Absolutely. When I was editing I think I sent back two or three reviews to the Admin because they were basically unreadable, or had things in them that I thought the Admins needed to look at. I did send one back to the reviewer and after waiting for over a day for it to be rewritten, I let it go. It did go back into the reviews to be edited and someone else grabbed it and.... didn't do a good job with it.

I think in most cases, it's best to send it to the Admin, at least then you can grab an other review to edit. If you send them back to the reviewer, you are stuck until they do something with it, and some won't.
04/04/2012
Contributor: Crystal1 Crystal1
If I see a really obvious error (like something misspelled in the title), I'll usually message the editor. While there are some REALLY well-written reviews, there are a surprising number that leave your (or at leas my) head spinning by the time you've edited your way through it, which makes it really easy to miss an error you'd normally catch.

I do wonder if we need to send reviews back *more* often. I know of a few times recently when I've left a note at the bottom of a review along the lines of "Please make sure to always capitalize "I" and put a space after commas and periods." only to see another review from the same person a few days later with the exact same problems. While it's much quicker and easier for me to go through to make those changes, it would probably benefit the reviewer more in the long run if they had to do it themselves.

It would be *awesome* if we had a system like one of the media companies I write for that lets you see the corrections an editor has made. (It shows my words in red, and what it has been replaced with in green.) It's so handy to be able to see at a glance where I screwed up, and occasionally where my copy editor changed something they shouldn't have. Unfortunately, I'm betting something like that is WAY too complex for us to have here.

Anyway, all that rambling aside, I guess my point is that if you see consistently bad work from an editor (or even one review with a LOT of errors), let Sammi know about the problem so something can be done. Editors don't receive any special training, so it may be as simple as a note that they need to read up on how to correctly use a semicolon.

If it's just a minor mistake here and there (and you don't mind taking a second to help their performance), I'd send the editor a quick note explaining what you noticed. As a past editor, I'd MUCH rather get a message that said "Yo, dude. That review about Bob's Super Duper Penis Dildo? You missed a spot in the summary where the reviewer said 'ponies' instead of 'penis'." than to have dozens of people read the review and crack up over the pony sex typo.

I do agree that the excellent/good/poor rating system could use some improvement, but I can't personally think of a better way to do it.

If there are major problems in a review, I don't see anything wrong with saying something in the comments, as long as it's done politely. ("Thanks for the review! Just for future reference, 'silicon' and 'silicone' are different things.")
04/04/2012
Contributor: Crystal1 Crystal1
Quote:
Originally posted by P'Gell
Absolutely. When I was editing I think I sent back two or three reviews to the Admin because they were basically unreadable, or had things in them that I thought the Admins needed to look at. I did send one back to the reviewer and after waiting for ... more
I usually unlocked reviews that I sent back after about an hour, since that was the only way I'd be able to claim anything else to work on. I once had a review where they wrote about 3 sentences about the toy, and then filled in all of the rest of the fields with "sldjkg askjh jkd as" to meet the minimum character count. I am utterly shocked that they never rewrote it after my "Let's try that again, but with actual words this time!" note.
04/04/2012
Contributor: Petite Valentine Petite Valentine
Quote:
Originally posted by Crystal1
I usually unlocked reviews that I sent back after about an hour, since that was the only way I'd be able to claim anything else to work on. I once had a review where they wrote about 3 sentences about the toy, and then filled in all of the rest ... more
That should have been sent directly to an admin.
04/04/2012
Contributor: K101 K101
Quote:
Originally posted by Petite Valentine
For the second time in 12 hours I've encountered a review that has appalling spelling and grammar errors. One had a glaring misspelling and total breakdown of grammar in the summary alone. (I won't address comma usage since some people feel ... more
I have seen this! I feel horrible for giving poor ratings because I have to wonder, when these reviews have such MAJOR errors, if the reviewer isn't at fault. I just don't rate if it's that bad and lately, wow! I make mistakes, we all do! Still, there are some that look as if they've never even been read.

I don't think you should say something publicly. That is rude. You could private message them if it's that bad or let the admins decide to do something about it.

Now, I have had a review for days now that was so bad I did not even know where to start. Some of the sentences aren't even understandable. It's like true jibber jabber and I couldn't even make out what the person meant for it to say. I ended up having to send it back to them with a list the size of Texas on errors that need to be fixed. However, the reviewer never did fix or respond so I'm stuck not being able to accept other tasks until they do. It's a new person so I think they're not really into this reviewing thing anyhow. Not sure what to do about that, but I don't think editors should be held responsible when the reviewer won't fix their mistakes after being told.

I also am good at understanding simple mistakes. However, a ton of very noticeable mis-spelled words make it hard to think that the editor is good. Again though, it could be a case of the reviewer going into it and putting those mistakes there. ?

Best thing is private messaging. It's just rude to do that publicly and there's no need for it unless you wanted people to see that you called them out on a mistake. I find that people respond more kindly and more appreciatively when messaged privately. It shows that you actually cared and aren't doing it just to "call them out."
04/12/2012