Do you think that the Editor/Proofreading Program is Effective?

El-Jaro El-Jaro
Quote:
Originally posted by DeliciousSurprise
Hyphen -
En Dash –
Em Dash —

Em Dashes are for pauses in thought, parenthetical statements, or afterthoughts (I told you that I didn't want—)

En Dashes are for range (He reigned from 1969–1982)

Hyphens are for word ... More
Don't forget the Pe Dash ---->

It usually happens right before the most important part of the movie when you're at the theater.

Thanks for the English lesson!
06/07/2011
Selective Sensualist Selective Sensualist
Quote:
Originally posted by cherryredhead88
Huh. I thought hyphens and en dashes were the same thing. I can't make sense of an em dash though, I didn't hear of that in any of my ENG classes.

You learn something new everyday! Thanks Delicious!
Misusing hyphens as though they are em dashes is one of the most common punctuation errors that I see, but a hyphen is not a dash!

When I see a hyphen used as though it were a dash, I change it to an em dash (from - to —). I make my dashes in Microsoft Word and then copy and paste them in. See example 8: link . If you do not want to deal with that, when you need a dash on EF's site, simply type in two hyphens (or even three hyphens since a dash is about the length of three hyphens: — versus ---).

Below are some other links in case anyone is interested:

link

link

link

link

link
06/07/2011
Sir Sir
No, a hyphen is not a dash, but since we do not have the symbol on our keyboard, using spaces around the hyphen works just fine.
06/07/2011
Selective Sensualist Selective Sensualist
Quote:
Originally posted by Sir
No, a hyphen is not a dash, but since we do not have the symbol on our keyboard, using spaces around the hyphen works just fine.
Actually, you should type two hyphens for it to serve as a dash. If you use two hyphens, you have the option of making it either a closed or open em dash, though only newspapers and journals follow the open em dash rule (and that is only for typesetting purposes). All other U.S. style guides---and most of Great Britain's, except for a couple of publishing houses---dictate the use of the closed em dash. (As a reference point, I used a pair of closed em dashes in my above statement -- because I wanted to illustrate what it looks like. And in the previous sentence, I illustrated an open em dash. I also used triple and double hyphens, respectively, instead of converting to "real" dashes in Word.)

For anyone interested in making a solid em dash in Microsoft Word (to be used in the closed style), simply type in a letter or a word, then two hyphens, then another letter or word, and then hit the space bar (like this: a--b ). When you hit the space bar, Word will convert the two hyphens to a longer, solid em dash (from -- to —). You can then copy and paste the dash into your text. It never takes me more than a few seconds (if even that).

Open em dashes actually use an en dash surrounded by spaces on either side. An en dash is what is formed in Microsoft Word if you type in a word or letter, a space, then two hyphens, then another space, then another word or letter, and then a space (like this: a -- b ). What is produced is a bit shorter than what Word produces when you type this: a--b .

Here is the difference between the en dash and the em dash, as produced by Word in the manner described above: – versus —. On the left is an en dash formed by two hyphens WITH spaces on either side of them, and on the right is an em dash formed by two hyphens with no spaces on either side of them. Please note that even the shorter of the two is longer than a hyphen: - versus – versus —.

If you decide to buck convention and make the stylistic choice to use open em dashes on EF and do not want to convert to a solid en dash in Word, you can just place spaces on either side of the double hyphens (like -- this). For a closed em dash, you can type in three hyphens to better approximate the length of an em dash since closed double hyphens look a bit claustrophobic (like---this). However, it would be perfectly fine--and grammatically correct--to use double hyphens in forming a closed em dash as well (like--this).

***But again, no matter if you choose the more commonly endorsed closed style or the open style, double hyphens are perfectly acceptable if you need a dash (and three are fine for closed style if you prefer). However, a single hyphen is not at all grammatically correct to be used as a dash.
06/07/2011
Darling Jen Darling Jen
Quote:
Originally posted by Selective Sensualist
I always leave explanations for the editing changes I have made. I do this by copying and pasting the original sentence (shown as Before) and then paste it again to show the grammar corrections (shown as After). Above that, I briefly mention what ... More
That's an awesome plan. Honestly there have been a couple of promising reviews I've edited that I considered messaging the reviewers to let them know that they could be doing some stellar work and I'd be willing to take them on as a student. I didn't though because I didn't want to be pushy or overstep my bounds as an editor. But I might start making a habit of leaving useful notes before publishing. Do the reviewers get notified of comments on reviews like students/mentors do???
06/07/2011
Selective Sensualist Selective Sensualist
Quote:
Originally posted by Darling Jen
That's an awesome plan. Honestly there have been a couple of promising reviews I've edited that I considered messaging the reviewers to let them know that they could be doing some stellar work and I'd be willing to take them on as a ... More
Luckily enough, editors do receive notification that a contributor has responded to their notes. When I first started posting notes, I didn't think we would receive notifications, but I get notifications all the time that a contributor has responded to my notes!

I greatly love the feedback from them, and it gives me the encouragement to continue investing the additional time to make explanations to help people. You never know how the information you share with someone will help him or her. I keep thinking perhaps it will help them when they go to write a cover letter to apply for a job or for a graduate program . . . or other important things in their lives!

I am a bona fide grammar nerd and think grammar is important and too underrated. Eats, Shoots & Leaves is one of my favorite books. link I found it to be incredibly entertaining and hilarious! I recommend it to all the editors and, really, to anyone who enjoys humor and just happens to have a bit of interest in grammar.


I've had a few requests for mentorship in the responses I've gotten from my grammar explanations, which I greatly appreciated. But sadly, my life has been crazy in the real world for the past several months. Perhaps one day things will settle and fall into a normal routine. When the dust clears, I think I'd love mentoring! So if you are both an editor and a mentor, you will find that comments to help people with their grammar is often appreciated. You might get additional requests to be a mentor from contributors whose work you have edited.
06/07/2011
Selective Sensualist Selective Sensualist
Quote:
Originally posted by Antipova
I'm very appreciative of how Selective Sensualist does her editing. She taught me the difference between a hyphen and an em dash. I've learned a lot from Eden, but that lesson might be the only one that's carried over to my professional life.
I meant to respond to this the other day and forgot that I didn't. Thanks so much for the feedback! I never know what information will be helpful to someone, so I'm glad I included it.
06/07/2011
Sir Sir
Quote:
Originally posted by Selective Sensualist
Actually, you should type two hyphens for it to serve as a dash. If you use two hyphens, you have the option of making it either a closed or open em dash, though only newspapers and journals follow the open em dash rule (and that is only for ... More
Thanks for the info!
06/07/2011
Jobthingy Jobthingy
Quote:
Originally posted by DeliciousSurprise
Hyphen -
En Dash –
Em Dash —

Em Dashes are for pauses in thought, parenthetical statements, or afterthoughts (I told you that I didn't want—)

En Dashes are for range (He reigned from 1969–1982)

Hyphens are for word ... More
wanna come over and teach me some grammar
06/07/2011
DeliciousSurprise DeliciousSurprise
Quote:
Originally posted by Jobthingy
wanna come over and teach me some grammar
Is grammar the only thing I get to teach?
06/07/2011
tim1724 tim1724
For anyone typing their reviews on a Mac, you can type en dashes and em dashes pretty easily. Hold down the Option key and press the hyphen/minus key to type an en dash. Hold down both the Option and Shift keys and press the hyphen/minus key to type an em dash.

Note that this is for Apple's US/Canadian English keyboard layout. Other keyboard layouts may use different keyboard combinations.
06/07/2011
tim1724 tim1724
Quote:
Originally posted by Selective Sensualist
Luckily enough, editors do receive notification that a contributor has responded to their notes. When I first started posting notes, I didn't think we would receive notifications, but I get notifications all the time that a contributor has ... More
Oh, we get a notification when the writer responds to a note? Cool. I guess I haven't left enough notes, as I've never had a response.

I'm going to have to start writing notes on more of my proofreading tasks.
06/07/2011
BBW Talks Toys BBW Talks Toys
Quote:
Originally posted by Shellz31
I have seen a couple of editors who need checking into!
Yes, people make mistakes but when they fail to correct a few things, that's not acceptable! They are getting points for not doing the job properly.

I think the editors rank ... More
As JR has said in another thread, there's more to it than just rank. I'm sure they look at your reviews, your time on the site, and various other things that I'm not sure of. I don't know that I've seen many people with a rank under 6 as editors.

As for what is and isn't acceptable... I don't think it's really wise to decide if a few things slip through in a single review, that it's unacceptable. I'm not an editor, but I am a mentor. I put all my students' reviews into a word processor for several reasons:

1) To give it a different place to view it, reading in different formats lets me catch more things.

2) To catch things that I might not have caught myself.

Even after doing that, I've still missed things in my students' (sometimes more than one thing in the same review). Should my mentor status be revoked because I missed a few errors? Everyone makes mistakes.
06/08/2011
BBW Talks Toys BBW Talks Toys
Quote:
Originally posted by DeliciousSurprise
We see the titles and the reviewers only, along with whether it's a full review or a follow-up.

And if you're interested in having someone read over your reviews, why not join the mentor program? Many mentors would be happy to help ... More
This. Or even have a friend on site that you trust just read over your review to catch an error here or there.
06/08/2011
kendra30752 kendra30752
Honestly, I hate to ever say anything but I have noticed the same exact thing. Now I don't think someoen should be downed or anything over a few misspellings. I get tired and ahead of myself and my letter get mixed up when I try typing fast, but I'm always extra careful in my reviews! I do think it reflects poorly on the editor when there's a ton of misspellings and stuff that doesn't make sense. I usually try to look over and not critisize for common mistakes because even if we know the correct spelling or whatever we all accidentally type it wrong and I also try looking over it since I feel I tend to be overly careful and notice every tiny mistake because of my schooling. I'm attending school to be a writer and with editing classes, I HAVE to notice every tiny mistake so of course I'll notice ones that aren't anything serious. I don't do my best when just typing, but like I said, if it's a review I want it all to be correct! I was worried when I first signed up with a mentor that they wouldn't want to tell me when I made mistakes, but thankfully Sexxy Sarah does let me know when I've made one.

I also understand that during the reviews it doesn't tell you that you've gone over the word limit until you've submitted so then you've got to go back and cut and chop so I've accidentally left sentences that made no sense due to the cutting and chopping to fit the word limit.

Anyways, I've read so many reviews lately that are just un-readable. The sentences won't have periods, the spelling wasn't corrected which leaves words with "cute" little spellings like "me thinks it's berry fun!" This is an adult site, not a child's site. Also, I'll notice things where the person tried to spell in a "cute" way which only throws you off and looks totally unprofessional. Of course the editors are bound to overlook things and I totally understand that and it doesn't bother me, but you can definitely tell when they've just carelessly gave it a once over and DONE! Publish!
06/11/2011
Kindred Kindred
Quote:
Originally posted by kendra30752
Honestly, I hate to ever say anything but I have noticed the same exact thing. Now I don't think someoen should be downed or anything over a few misspellings. I get tired and ahead of myself and my letter get mixed up when I try typing fast, but ... More
Just for clarification, if a reviewer writes "me thinks it's berry fun!" and I believe it is intentional, I will not correct it. That would be altering the voice of the writer which is not the function of an editor. Additionally, the role of a mentor is completely different from an editor. While I think it's great that editors such as Selective Sensualist actually inform reviewers of the mistakes that they made, that is going way beyond the role of an editor.
06/11/2011
B8trDude B8trDude
This thread has taken on a rather interesting twist - many are now looking at qualitative elements of the editing process, rather than the egregious errors found in some, but certainly not most, edited reviews. It's possible to endlessly discuss what a good review is and what is not. The problem, as I see it, is that there are some edited reviews that are really awful and filled with real errors that should have been caught.

As far as the creative use of language, such as "me thinks it's berry fun!", I agree that these should be left as is, particularly when it's obvious that the reviewer did this intentionally. Of course, I would NEVER use such literary devices in my own reviews - I just HATE it when people try to be "punny" BTW, I've got some swampland for sale, any takers?
06/11/2011
cherryredhead88 cherryredhead88
Quote:
Originally posted by Selective Sensualist
Actually, you should type two hyphens for it to serve as a dash. If you use two hyphens, you have the option of making it either a closed or open em dash, though only newspapers and journals follow the open em dash rule (and that is only for ... More
I think I will stick with the open em dashes since I do not like the lack of space in between words and symbols unless there are parentheses.

I'm sure glad that it isn't required to get into these specifics on all the reviews, you guys are making my head spin! Lol

Luckily I am good at spelling and grammar enough to make a good readable review, I don't get that picky though. As far as dashes and all that, I could care less as long as I know what the person is talking about.

This thread has definitely gotten really deep, and I agree with B8tr that the main focus (for me anyways) is to make sure all the huge mistakes don't slip through the cracks.
06/12/2011
tim1724 tim1724
Quote:
Originally posted by tim1724
Oh, and hasn't the "publishing without saving" bug been fixed? I haven't had any problems with it.
argh. I just discovered that this bug (where sections revert to unedited versions if you don't hit the "Save" button before publishing) is alive and well in Gecko-based browsers (such as Firefox). I never have the bug in Webkit-based browsers (eg. Safari) but today I was using a different browser and ran into the problem. (But luckily I noticed.) I'll stick to Safari for my editing from now on.
06/14/2011
Diabolical Kitty Diabolical Kitty
I like more people need to actually rate the proofreader as it should.
06/14/2011
BBW Talks Toys BBW Talks Toys
Quote:
Originally posted by kendra30752
Honestly, I hate to ever say anything but I have noticed the same exact thing. Now I don't think someoen should be downed or anything over a few misspellings. I get tired and ahead of myself and my letter get mixed up when I try typing fast, but ... More
First of all, not everyone is a natural-born writer. Also? Not everyone takes grammatical classes. Not everyone is very good at grammar. I tend to be a grammatical Nazi and even I make mistakes.

I tend to be of the opinion of: If you're not in their shoes, you can't make assumptions of their process. Everyone has bad days and everyone makes mistakes. Also, you say you have to notice every little mistake, but I've seen mistakes even in your posts on the forums. We all do it. Don't criticize others for the same mistakes.

As for the writer's voice? I agree that we (as editors, which I am not; and as mentors, which I am) need to do our best to preserve the writer's voice. What we're asked to make sure of is that there are no emoticons or chat speak in the reviews. Other than that, I tend to be pretty lax on colloquialisms and puns. There's lots of rooom on EF for different writers with different styles of writing. If you don't like someone's style, you aren't obligated to read their reviews.

I'd really love to know which reviews you've seen that are 'unreadable' and have egregious errors, because those should have never made it through editing. Even the bad reviews I've read are, thankfully, no longer laden with errors or are 'unreadable.' For that, you wonderful editors, you get a BIG standing ovation from me! Thank you for your hard work!
06/14/2011
BBW Talks Toys BBW Talks Toys
Dammit the image will have to wait until I am home
06/14/2011
Ivy Wilde Ivy Wilde
Quote:
Originally posted by cherryredhead88
"But sometimes you get a review for which you must laboriously decipher what is even being said sentence by sentence."


THIS. This is just what I was coming back to write about. I have had quite a few reviews with so many run on ... More
I did not realize that editors were not allowed to make substantive changes to the original review. I assumed that they had the authority to significantly revise the writing to make it more readable. I'm going to have to change how I vote on the editing. I apologize to the editors to whom I gave a lower rating simply because the review was poorly written.
06/14/2011
Antipova Antipova
Quote:
Originally posted by BBW Talks Toys
First of all, not everyone is a natural-born writer. Also? Not everyone takes grammatical classes. Not everyone is very good at grammar. I tend to be a grammatical Nazi and even I make mistakes.

I tend to be of the opinion of: If you're ... More
I don't think we should actually put links to poorly-edited reviews here, because pointing fingers isn't really helpful. But yes, BBWTT, there are reviews out there where the editors have left egregious errors. I could send you some examples by PM if you really wanted.
06/14/2011
Ivy Wilde Ivy Wilde
Quote:
Originally posted by Selective Sensualist
I always leave explanations for the editing changes I have made. I do this by copying and pasting the original sentence (shown as Before) and then paste it again to show the grammar corrections (shown as After). Above that, I briefly mention what ... More
I would be very interested in having the links to these grammar sites. I think that I write fairly well, but there is is always room for improvement.
06/14/2011
Petite Valentine Petite Valentine
Quote:
Originally posted by Ivy Wilde
I did not realize that editors were not allowed to make substantive changes to the original review. I assumed that they had the authority to significantly revise the writing to make it more readable. I'm going to have to change how I vote on the ... More
And this is why I don't like to vote on editing. It's impossible for the reader to tell what the editor has done, and possibly had undone by the reviewer. Like Z2, I apologize to any editors I gave an undeserved lower rating. Now I only vote if the review is fantastic. My reasoning is that the editor either helped make it so, or had the sense to not mess with perfection.

I only make exceptions for my reviews. Not that I think they're fantastic , just that I can guarantee that my mentor is a tremendous help, going above and beyond correcting mere typos, so I am happy to heap lavish praise upon her.
06/14/2011
Antipova Antipova
Quote:
Originally posted by Petite Valentine
And this is why I don't like to vote on editing. It's impossible for the reader to tell what the editor has done, and possibly had undone by the reviewer. Like Z2, I apologize to any editors I gave an undeserved lower rating. Now I only vote ... More
I think Z2 and Petite Valentine's worry about voting for editors could be cleared up if we switched the "excellent, good, and poor" to "no errors, one error, and two or more errors" for editors.

Maybe we could leave "excellent good and poor" for mentors, and that would help voters know what sort of editing was done, too.
06/14/2011
Ivy Wilde Ivy Wilde
Quote:
Originally posted by Ivy Wilde
I would be very interested in having the links to these grammar sites. I think that I write fairly well, but there is is always room for improvement.
Oops! I should have kept reading before posting. I found the links you gave. Thanks!
06/14/2011
BBW Talks Toys BBW Talks Toys
Quote:
Originally posted by Antipova
I don't think we should actually put links to poorly-edited reviews here, because pointing fingers isn't really helpful. But yes, BBWTT, there are reviews out there where the editors have left egregious errors. I could send you some examples ... More
It was more of a rhetorical question/suggestion. I have seen some reviews where things were missed, but not so much to the point of being 'unreadable,' yanno??
06/14/2011
BBW Talks Toys BBW Talks Toys
Quote:
Originally posted by Antipova
I think Z2 and Petite Valentine's worry about voting for editors could be cleared up if we switched the "excellent, good, and poor" to "no errors, one error, and two or more errors" for editors.

Maybe we could leave ... More
The problem with the 'one error, two...etc' is that there's still no way to know if it was the editor's doing or if the reviewer changed it back.
06/14/2011
Total posts: 131
Unique posters: 58