Off-site reviews by established bloggers

Off-site reviews by established bloggers

 
 
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Sundae Sundae
I really just wanted to put my two cents in about the recent trend of EF using established bloggers, 'mommy bloggers' or otherwise, to gain more exposure and subsequently these reviews appearing on EF. This thread is not intended to question whether EF should or shouldn't send out products to these people, rather whether or not these reviews need to appear on EF.

Reading the off-site style of review by those particular bloggers, for me at least, kind of gets my hackles up. I want to offer advice as to how it could be improved to be more informative etc. in the same way the mentor program now tries to explain this to new reviewers. I get frustrated by certain styles of writing and blog designs which are hard on my eyes and look unprofessional (which admittedly is not something limited to 'mommy' or unknown bloggers!). Yet, I know what I have to say really won't make a difference as it's less about review content and more about exposure for EF.

I completely understand and support the way in which EF wants to reach out to new audiences. Sending out products to these blogs, to get EF exposure and introduce new people to the concept is a great idea and I'm sure it's something that is very successful. I have no issue with this style of marketing. It's just that I think I'd rather not have that style of off-site review put in the same basket as the rest. They're really two different animals!

I know one of the Eden staff mentioned that there was an outcry before that these 'mommy bloggers' in particular didn't have EF contributor accounts, yet got the chance to review things on their blog. That's why the decision was made to ask them all to make an EF account and do off-site reviews. Yet, to me it's a little frustrating to see this style of 'review' which is on the whole more like an Eden ad, next to the in depth product reviews most of the community does. It's a very different style of writing with a different intended audience and doesn't seem to fit very well.

If these bloggers subsequently want to become a part of the review program, in the 'normal' way that most reviewers are, then by all means I support that and would love to see them welcomed into the community. However, it seems a little counter-productive for them to join to write reviews for one or two push assignments, when these reviews are often more like product placements than EF style reviews. Especially, as it seems most of these bloggers do not have plans to become more involved in the EF community. I think it creates a bit of animosity within the community towards these bloggers and their type of reviews.

So, essentially, I just wanted to see what everyone else thought about this or what the consensus was with staff regarding this topic? I want to re-iterate again, I don't have an issue with these people receiving free products. It's more about where we draw the line between review and product placement/advertising and how useful this sort of review would be to a customer looking for information on a product versus its value in drawing new customers to EF. In my opinion, the two should generally be kept separate, with the understanding that some bloggers may receive products to 'review', which means a different thing to reviewing in the context of EF, so they needn't have an EF account.

Thoughts/comments?
05/11/2010
Adriana Ravenlust Adriana Ravenlust
I was one of the people that didn't really like seeing all those bloggers who were not apart of the EF community write 'reviews' on their sites before. It felt extremely shifty that EF wasn't being transparent. Not, I guess, that they have to. It just would have been nice.

While including these reviews is definitely more transparent, it does not help the program. As you say, some of these reviews are definitely not helpful to customers.

But I'm not sure which bothers me more
05/11/2010
TitsMcScandal TitsMcScandal
I have the same sort of feelings that Sundae has. I really don't care that they are receiving toys for free. Honestly, if it is making money for EF, then great! I love it here and want them to make the most money as possible.

However, these 'reviews' irk the eyeball juice out of me.

I had no idea it was happening before, and I can see being confused if I did stumble upon one. I do see wanting transparency. But I feel like including them in what we have here, when they aren't looking to be included in our community or do actual reviews, is also frustrating. If they wanted to actually review the products/improve I'd be all for them joining the program. But they aren't.

So yeah... I don't really know what the solution is, but it is aggravating.
05/11/2010
Sundae Sundae
Quote:
Originally posted by Adriana Ravenlust
I was one of the people that didn't really like seeing all those bloggers who were not apart of the EF community write 'reviews' on their sites before. It felt extremely shifty that EF wasn't being transparent. Not, I guess, that they have to. It ... More
Yeah, I can see where people were coming from just wanting to know what was happening and why these people were receiving products. I was initially a bit sceptical too. Yet I think if we now know that it's just another way for EF to market products, then perhaps people will understand it better and accept it? Would a thread, or sort of public announcement cleared up that sufficiently? It just feels like a waste of these bloggers' time and energy making EF accounts if what they're there for is that style of review.
05/11/2010
~LaUr3n~ ~LaUr3n~
For the most part I agree with this, I just don't feel as strongly.
I don't like the majority of off site reviewing as a whole anyways, but that's just me. I do agree that the reviews are much different usually and not on the same par.
05/11/2010
J's Alley J's Alley
I don't take issue with it. I just sort of ignore those reviews and move on, you can usually tell when you get to their blogs that they are mommy bloggers. The reviews read more like a long winded ad, and have no value as an actual review to me, so I don't even bother reading them. I have read some and I must say, a couple were pretty good, must most that I rated, I rated lower because of the lack of actual review quality.

I don't mind so much that they have accounts, it just irks me to go to their blog and realize I did it for no reason. Other than that I just pretend they aren't there because the reviews hold no actual substance for me while I am looking for a new toy.

Having said that, if there are mommy bloggers who want to do actual reviewing here at EF...GREAT! I am all for it. I have two blogs, one for reviewing, and one for reality, so I get it. I would suggest though that those who have received low ratings go look at the the new kickass mentor program EF has put up for us all
05/11/2010
Jenn (aka kissmykitty) Jenn (aka kissmykitty)
(EdenFantasys)
Hi Sundae! I'm Jenn, the Off-site Review Program Manager for Eden Fantasys (just introducing myself to you and anyone else reading this thread, in case you don't already know who I am). I handle the majority of bloggers and all of the mommy bloggers that provide off-site reviews for Eden Fantasys.

First, let me say that I appreciate you voicing your concerns in a respectful, mature manner, as well as in a concise manner that isn't rambly or disorganized. It makes it much easier for me -- and others, I'm sure -- to follow your train of thought.

Second, I want to say that EF does very much care about the quality of the content that bloggers are providing for Eden Fantasys. I will be the first to admit that in the past and even recently many of the reviews were lacking in any type of substantial content. I want to assure you that this is a big priority of mine on a daily basis; I read every review that a blogger submits, and in many instances I contact bloggers to request changes or make suggestions. Overall, I am promoting the importance of quality reviews that touch on the basics of a sex toy product review -- what the product is, its dimensions and basic functions, how it works, personal experience with it, etc. -- with every blogger, but you have to keep in mind that a lot of these bloggers are new to the concept of promoting sex toys on their blog. Not only that, they and their audiences are new to the concept of even talking about sex on their blog (I know, it's ironic when you consider that a lot of these bloggers have children -- obviously, sex is a big part of the equation!).

We want bloggers to participate in the EF community, and I encourage that with all of them, but for many of them, joining a community that is focused solely on sex and sex toys is a little daunting. Also, many of them are very busy with managing families, jobs, their blogs (and the work & product reviews that often go hand in hand with managing these blogs), etc., so they may not have the time to be active in the community.

As far as having off-site reviews included in the list of reviews for a product, we are working hard on figuring out ways to better present reviews to the community, and to customers. I know that the writing style many of these bloggers have is dramatically different from the writing style of on-site reviewers, but that doesn't mean that their reviews are any less worthy, any less useful, etc.

Re: design - I agree with you that the designs and layouts that many of these bloggers use leave much to be desired. I'll be the first to admit that some of the designs and color choices leave me wincing a bit. But different strokes for different folks, you know? The community and customers alike have the option of visiting a blog for more info on the product, or just being satisfied with the summary that is posted here on EF.

Bottom line: we're doing our best to ensure that off-site reviewers, whether they be general bloggers or mommy bloggers, produce high quality product reviews that demonstrate that they actually took the time to use the product, and that they are willing to provide a detailed review that gives readers a very good idea of what the product is really like, how it performs, etc. There are still a lot of kinks to be worked out, and the program will continue to change and evolve.
05/11/2010
Jenn (aka kissmykitty) Jenn (aka kissmykitty)
(EdenFantasys)
Quote:
Originally posted by J's Alley
I don't take issue with it. I just sort of ignore those reviews and move on, you can usually tell when you get to their blogs that they are mommy bloggers. The reviews read more like a long winded ad, and have no value as an actual review to me, so ... More
Re: lack of substance --

I agree that some of the blogger-produced reviews are clearly lacking in substance. Believe me when I say that this is an issue I am firmly on top of on a daily basis. When bloggers are initially invited to join the program, I clearly outline the expectations of the program, including what we expect for a product review. Most bloggers are doing their best to comply, but the ones that aren't are quickly contacted and asked for a revision. If one is provided, great, we move on to the next review when it's time. If not, then they may be asked to revise the review and be willing to comply for future reviews, otherwise they may not be eligible to continue with the program.

I can promise you that reviews of substance are *very* important to me, and to all of the EF staff. Useless reviews that do nothing more than take up space are not the type of reviews I/we want to see here!
05/11/2010
Jenn (aka kissmykitty) Jenn (aka kissmykitty)
(EdenFantasys)
Also, it might be worth noting that the review standards most of the EF community has adopted may be a bit rigid or too structured for bloggers who are used to a much more flexible style of reviewing, and blogging in general.

While I do provide criteria for bloggers to follow when writing reviews, I'm not going to expect them to break down a product and go on about every last tiny, minute detail. That is what the product page is for, and in this case the very awesomely detailed reviews that on-site reviewers provide.
However, I *do* expect them to name the product, link to it, hopefully include a photo of it, and absolutely describe the product -- what it is, what it does, what its intended purpose is. I also expect them to provide their own experience with it. Since a lot of them are not comfortable going into the detail that a lot of on-site reviewers do, they often generalize a bit more, which is okay with me, so long as they DO provide their experience with it -- did they like it, did it work as expected, etc.

(Note: the criteria above is what is expected of a review and what I hope to see, *and* what I outline to bloggers when they initially join the program. Unfortunately, the reviews that are produced do not always cover all of this criteria -- that is something I am actively working on daily to ensure that EF is provided with high quality reviews that are both engaging and useful!)

Now, I'm not saying that there are two sets of standards, one for on-site and one for off-site. What I'm saying is that you have to keep in mind that these are bloggers that are writing reviews on sex toys on their personal blogs, and they're addressing their readers first, other visitors second. Whereas the reviews that are produced for on-site display only are obviously going to be lengthier, more detailed, and perhaps touch on other aspects of a product, such as its material properties, how it should be cleaned, etc., because the on-site reviewers write these *knowing* that they are for customers.
05/11/2010
Victoria Victoria
(Doc Johnson)
Also, I think it's important to note that people are entitled to their own voices - we should not editorialize so much that we stamp out the individuality of the reviews. I think there are some practices, and sort of unwritten laws in some cases, about what is expected for a review to be considered useful - and that is so limiting. Not everyone reads a review with the expectation that in-depth cleaning instructions will be included, or a dissertation on materials will be given. Seriously. Let's be human here. Not everyone is, nor should be expected to be, a pro at review writing. We're not looking for super polished professional reviews - remember, these are supposed to be real reviews by real people. Give people a chance to talk about their experiences in their own way.
05/11/2010
Victoria Victoria
(Doc Johnson)
Quote:
Originally posted by Jenn (aka kissmykitty)
Also, it might be worth noting that the review standards most of the EF community has adopted may be a bit rigid or too structured for bloggers who are used to a much more flexible style of reviewing, and blogging in general.

While I do ... More
Wow - we were typing at the same time!
05/11/2010
MuffysPinguLove MuffysPinguLove
Quote:
Originally posted by Jenn (aka kissmykitty)
Also, it might be worth noting that the review standards most of the EF community has adopted may be a bit rigid or too structured for bloggers who are used to a much more flexible style of reviewing, and blogging in general.

While I do ... More
I just wanted to post a comment and say thank you for posting such well thought out and informative replies to the inquiries about off site reviewing. I had been wondering about some of these off site reviews myself and reading your replies helped to rid me of any and all of my misconceptions about them. I look forward to reading more of these reviews in the future, and lending a helping hand to any off site reviewers that might want some tips
05/11/2010
Sundae Sundae
Thanks for the really detailed replies Jenn and Victoria.

I'll try and sort through and pull out some points I want to talk about.

First, Jenn you said 'keep in mind that these are bloggers that are writing reviews on sex toys on their personal blogs, and they're addressing their readers first, other visitors second.' I think this point is exactly what I was trying to say. I have absolutely no issues with these bloggers writing on their blog in the style they choose and encourage them to do that in whatever style suits them. It's just that sometimes this can sit in opposition to the way the majority of EF reviews are written, which is why they stand out. You mention that you're working towards getting them to include certain information and photos etc. which I is really important. If that's something you have in mind and are working on, I support that totally and look forward to seeing the results. If all goes well, I expect that this style of review will fit in a lot better with what the community expects in a great review, with the flexibility for each writer's style and particular blog. It's hard to know what's happening behind the scenes and what's expected from people in this when you look at it from an outsider's perspective, so I appreciate you explaining this.

Next, you mention many of these bloggers have extremely busy lives and may be hesitant to get involved in the EF community. That, I again, very much understand. If that is the case, why not give them the option to come and join after their first review is posted, or perhaps if they express a particular interest in becoming a part of the community, instead of making it a requirement for each post? It's not that I don't want to see them in the community, far from that, just it seems more sensible all round for them to only become a part of it if they think they have the time/motivation to be! Again, I ask this from an outsider's perspective - your motivations for having them sign up as a reviewer could be something completely different that I haven't thought of, so I'm merely curious.

Victoria, I definitely respect what you have to say about individuality in reviews. There is a trend on EF towards a particular style of reviewing, that can be hard to break free from and I know when I first arrived to review here I felt that was this specific checklist expected of my reviews. This involved particularly detailed descriptions of materials, care and cleaning and often measurements. If there is increasingly a site-wide trend towards a more personalised, diverse approach to reviewing I support that as well. I suppose in effect all I'm asking is that these reviews don't represent a double standard in what information should be provided, obviously this style of review providing perhaps a less detailed explanation of some points. Jenn has explained that there is a definite push to even this out, which I really appreciate and didn't know about until she responded, so I am glad I know it's on the agenda! To be clear, I don't expect super professional, polished pieces, but there is a general site-wide standard for grammar/spelling/writi ng that I don't think is too much to ask for from any blogger, sex-related or otherwise. It is when this standard is not met, regardless of the actual content or individuality of the piece, that I suppose I get a bit testy. Again, I don't mean academic paper quality of writing, just something readable and insightful in its own way would be enough.
05/11/2010
Alan & Michele Alan & Michele
Quote:
Originally posted by Victoria
Also, I think it's important to note that people are entitled to their own voices - we should not editorialize so much that we stamp out the individuality of the reviews. I think there are some practices, and sort of unwritten laws in some cases, ... More
This is a VERY good point, and the reason that we recently moved to a blog ourselves. Our first couple of reviews here were more personal and free-flowing. But then after reading numerous comments/messages from other reviewers nitpicking every single little detail, we found ourselves trying to conform to everyone's standards (and I do mean everyone's). As a result, our reviews are/were way too long because we tried to mention everything that anyone would possibly want. Sometimes we cut out things that we personally wanted to say to try to keep things shorter but still include all the info that everyone wanted mentioned. Then it swung the other way, with certain reviewers making back-handed comments about long "dry" sounding reviews, which we are well aware that ours have become. Well what do they expect? It's hard to loosen up and be yourself when all you can think of is what part of that last sentence someone is going to complain about.

Even worse is when the complaints are contradictory. On a movie review for example, one person will want a scene-by-scene summary, but if you do that then another will complain that they didn't want to read all that info, they just want to know about the technical aspects.

At one point we considered quitting. We've both been writers for many years, but it often felt like EF was a place we really didn't fit in. The problem with that was, we *like* what EF is trying for (an educational sex-positive community) and the idea of contributing to it. After a long discussion we decided to go ahead and open up the blog in order to try to get back to the sort of writing we know we can do together. We're still struggling to find that balance between dry/technical and pure us, but it's a lot easier to steer towards the goal when we're on our own turf.
05/11/2010
Victoria Victoria
(Doc Johnson)
@Sundae - Thank you for your thoughtful reply. It is really appreciated! I do think there is a standard here that was never actually imposed by EF, and that is a problem when we see people feeling pushed out by it. Jenn goes on to explain her expectations and how she handles people in more detail in this thread.

@ Alan & Michelle - you just made my point for me with your reply! You are two people among many who have told us the same thing - the tone of reviews are too clinical, too limiting, feels repressed etc. We are so very glad you decided to stay! Please don't ever hesitate to let your own voice dictate your reviews. And always email us if you feel things need to change!

Thanks
05/11/2010
J's Alley J's Alley
I think everyone needs to keep in mind that these blogs and reviews may not do much for us, but someone new to sex toys might feel more comfortable reading their reviews vs ours. Also, I look at it like I do other reviewers. There are certain reviewers I know will be helpful to me, and certain ones I won't. Not due to a bad review, but maybe what they generally cover, or even what they prefer in toys.

Thank you to Victoria and Jenn for addressing these concerns so well. I love seeing how well the staff here handles everything.
05/11/2010
Adriana Ravenlust Adriana Ravenlust
Quote:
Originally posted by Alan & Michele
This is a VERY good point, and the reason that we recently moved to a blog ourselves. Our first couple of reviews here were more personal and free-flowing. But then after reading numerous comments/messages from other reviewers nitpicking every single ... More
No one is arguing here that writing on your own blog doesn't have its perks. I know that I, personally, write my blog reviews a bit differently. With that said, I think the issue here is whether EF should be including the publicity-type reviews with all the others ones.
05/11/2010
Dragon Dragon
"Mommy Bloggers" I'm not sure if I should be annoyed or not!
05/11/2010
Sundae Sundae
Quote:
Originally posted by Dragon
"Mommy Bloggers" I'm not sure if I should be annoyed or not!
It's not a term I coined and I don't mean to use it pejoratively, it's just a way of describing that particular type of blog. Hence why I put it in quotation marks.
05/11/2010
Alan & Michele Alan & Michele
Quote:
Originally posted by Adriana Ravenlust
No one is arguing here that writing on your own blog doesn't have its perks. I know that I, personally, write my blog reviews a bit differently. With that said, I think the issue here is whether EF should be including the publicity-type reviews with ... More
Sorry if I offended you by responding to Victoria.
05/12/2010
J's Alley J's Alley
So I had this amazing idea (ok, well I think it is a great one). Regarding the offsite reviewers, is there an possibility of creating a new type of contributor. Like an advertising contributor? Their reviews would be on their sites, but would not be on EF's site to be rated. Since they don't all want to be a part of the community, and let's be real here...if we don't feel the review is worth anything we are going to say so because that is what we all do here.

Basically they would post the review, make an account (as an advertising contributor) and send their reviews to Jenn. If they so choose to post them for feed back, hey that is their deal.

I really think this is a valid idea that the staff could look at and see if they could use. Given the recent drama (an a certain degree of lacking professionalism...not on the part of EF) I think this might make the whole thing easier. What people are forgetting is that we had to apply and be voted in to be a reviewer and some people are hurt that these bloggers were not voted in but rather hand picked. That is neither here nor there to me, I just wanted to help come up with a solution.
05/14/2010
Carrie Ann Carrie Ann
(EdenFantasys)
Quote:
Originally posted by J's Alley
So I had this amazing idea (ok, well I think it is a great one). Regarding the offsite reviewers, is there an possibility of creating a new type of contributor. Like an advertising contributor? Their reviews would be on their sites, but would not ... More
Stuff to keep them separate is in the works. It's slow going, it's a big change, but it's in the works.

No idea when it'll come out; y'all know updates can take awhile but we're doing our best to improve on how things are now with offsite stuff. Until it's fixed, everyone try to be patient and understanding to the new folks and Jenn's off site reviewers and remember...

We're fixing it!
05/14/2010
Dangerous Lilly Dangerous Lilly
While I agree with what Sundae is saying, I'm also feeling like I'm being lumped in with the "advertising review" crowd simply because I started with off-site reviewing and that's been my majority.

I frequently receive poor marks from fellow reviewers simply because it's an off-sit review and they didn't even click on the link. I've had a couple admit that to me.

So when I hear people here saying that they don't think as highly of off-site reviewers in general as a whole....that irks me just as much as when I read the uninformative/misleadi ng reviews that are just link-fests for advertising.

Just speaking up here to say that before you lump all off-site reviewers together....try to remember that SOME of us are trying our best to do our reviews in our own way (no, I don't fit the bland cookie-cutter mold of the guided reviews) but keep them informative and buyer-friendly. I write these reviews of mine with the thought of potential buyers in mind because I can remember shopping for myself a few years ago and not finding the information I wanted, the personal side. I don't write reviews to be graded.
05/14/2010
Amanda(Secret) Amanda(Secret)
I'm just have to say that Bloggers receiving free toys differs in no way from anyone else receiving free toys. I mean that just sounds nut man. I am a blogger as well. And let me tell you posting a review for EF on my website takes a lot more effort than using the awesome template they provide on EF. We don't have it easier. We have our own personality and style. I write a variety of reviews on that are both off site and on site. Either way the review is linked to EF in all situations. It is not about the template the blogger uses. It is not about where the review is put. What is important... the review is for Eden Fantasys and it is done by someone that has used their product and wants to review it. I have also found that you get a better review on blogs. It isn't your "standard" review that tells you everything you can find on the product description. Instead you will find more review on how the actual personal experience was. And that is what is important.
05/14/2010
J's Alley J's Alley
Quote:
Originally posted by Amanda(Secret)
I'm just have to say that Bloggers receiving free toys differs in no way from anyone else receiving free toys. I mean that just sounds nut man. I am a blogger as well. And let me tell you posting a review for EF on my website takes a lot more effort ... More
What people are referring to is not off site reviews in general. But the off site program. Big difference. The offsite reviews are still advanced reviewers, but the off site program features bloggers who are not reviewers at all. It is like an advertising type deal. When you go to their blogs all they are are reviews for companies and blurbs about the companies.

I am a blogger as well, but what is being discussed is not relevant to me because I am an actual reviewer. This is why I made the suggestion I did earlier.

@Carrie Ann ~ Jenn emailed me and told me about that (I emailed a concern to her). I am really glad to hear about something in the works and I hope it is wonderful.
05/14/2010
Evoluchun Evoluchun
I like everything the way it is and I don't know how many bloggers have hard to see sites because i don't just o reviews and giveaways for sex products but i work with lots of companies and they frown upon things that are hard to read or or too outlandish if it seems to be a problem EF could ask the same thing that all the others do. Granted I'm not on here alot but I'm so buy with my blog and other product reviews and giveaways I get on here when I can which again I know is not a whole lot but I try.
05/15/2010
LambChop LambChop
Quote:
Originally posted by Alan & Michele
This is a VERY good point, and the reason that we recently moved to a blog ourselves. Our first couple of reviews here were more personal and free-flowing. But then after reading numerous comments/messages from other reviewers nitpicking every single ... More
I'm so glad y'all decided to stay, too!
08/22/2010
Total posts: 27
Unique posters: 15