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Do you think Mormons had it right?
It's interesting that folks tend to wonder about the Mormon point of view when they hear of polyamory, but it isn't actually the same thing. Polyamory is the practice, desire, or acceptance of having more than one intimate relationship at a time with the knowledge and consent of everyone involved. Polygamy is a marriage which includes more than two partners. The Mormons at one point believed in the latter, but now only Fundamentalist Mormons do so. Learning more about their beliefs, however, I realized that the basis of their heaven still allows for polygamy in the afterlife, as those who make it to heaven are reunited as a family with all of their married Mormon partners from this life.
From my point of view, it's hard to agree with the Mormons on most things. This is because I spent a year attending their church and realizing how demoralizing and genderist their society is to women. When it comes to polygamy, I simply can't condone the manner in which most of their polygamist relationships were (and are) run. They aren't based on mutual consent and love as much as they are men claiming power over women and forcing them into a submissive role.
Not every polygamist relationship is this way, but the majority through time have been and I can't accept that. Especially the communities in which women as young as ten were forced to marry older polygamist members of the sect.
I believe in polyamory because it involves mutual consent and love on the part of all partners. It's not a power trip unless everyone wants it to be, and it doesn't interfere with people's lives in an illegal and immoral fashion. If polygamy could be tailored this way through education and proper power balance, then fine. But the point is it's not. And I just can't be okay with that.
From my point of view, it's hard to agree with the Mormons on most things. This is because I spent a year attending their church and realizing how demoralizing and genderist their society is to women. When it comes to polygamy, I simply can't condone the manner in which most of their polygamist relationships were (and are) run. They aren't based on mutual consent and love as much as they are men claiming power over women and forcing them into a submissive role.
Not every polygamist relationship is this way, but the majority through time have been and I can't accept that. Especially the communities in which women as young as ten were forced to marry older polygamist members of the sect.
I believe in polyamory because it involves mutual consent and love on the part of all partners. It's not a power trip unless everyone wants it to be, and it doesn't interfere with people's lives in an illegal and immoral fashion. If polygamy could be tailored this way through education and proper power balance, then fine. But the point is it's not. And I just can't be okay with that.
04/27/2011
Quote:
If you are questioning the entire Mormon faith this is, perhaps, not the forum for that. The way you state your poll makes it seem like the Mormons are gone....they are a thriving and active organization! Not all Mormons espouse polygyny and some don't recognize the concept of the 'celestial' marriage. In a community that values freedom of choice and responsibility for those choices you are going to get an overwhelming NO answer when you ask whether any person should be denied sexual freedom while his/her partner is enjoying that same freedom.
Originally posted by
Mr. Jim
This is a serious question.
SO if you're looking for a like minded answer to your own philosophy then welcome to it!
The thing is no one has the right to judge another person's philosophies faulty without risking the same in return. We can decry the abuses but we should respect the right of people to make up their own minds. We should also act when someone is denied the right to make their own choices.
I guess what I am saying is there is no easy answer to this question...yes or no is too limited.
04/28/2011
As Dusk pointed out above, there is a difference between polyamory and polygamy.
Also, it should be pointed out that polygamy is not practised within the mainstream Mormon faith. It has actually been banned by the mainstream church and is now practised only within the branch of the Mormon church known as the FLDS (that is, the Fundamentalist Church of Latter Day Saints.) Polygamy *was* a defining characteristic of the early Mormon church, but it was abandoned in 1890 and a policy of excommunication was instituted in 1904 for those members found to be practising polygamy.
Now that that's out of the way: I don't believe that polygamy, as it is practised within the fundamentalist Mormon faith, is a good thing. The women (and all too often, teenage girls) who are involved are raised in a society in which they are taught that their only way to salvation is to submit themselves to marriages with much older men. They have no say in the matter (as I mentioned before, they believe that their eternal salvation is dependent upon their acquiescence to these marriages.)
Several high-profile Mormom polygamists have been convicted of sexual crimes against the women and girls they forced into these marriages (Warren Jeffs is arguably the most famous example.)
I know this is a highly sensitive topic, but I honestly believe that polygamy as it is practised within the fundamentalist Mormon church is something that should be punished to the fullest extent of the law.
As to the Mormon faith in general: well, that's kind of where your question falls a bit short, in my humble opinion. As I've already pointed out, polygamy's not a policy that is embraced by the majority of Mormons; it's just that the stories we hear about polygamy in the media have led most people to equate all Mormonism with polygamy -- and that couldn't be further from the truth. All the Mormons I know are members of the mainstream church, and none of them believe that polygamy is okay.
You really can't paint all Mormons with the same brush. I know you probably didn't mean to, but you can't just ask "Did the Mormons have it right?" without pointing out the fact that not all Mormons agree with polygamy.
Also, it should be pointed out that polygamy is not practised within the mainstream Mormon faith. It has actually been banned by the mainstream church and is now practised only within the branch of the Mormon church known as the FLDS (that is, the Fundamentalist Church of Latter Day Saints.) Polygamy *was* a defining characteristic of the early Mormon church, but it was abandoned in 1890 and a policy of excommunication was instituted in 1904 for those members found to be practising polygamy.
Now that that's out of the way: I don't believe that polygamy, as it is practised within the fundamentalist Mormon faith, is a good thing. The women (and all too often, teenage girls) who are involved are raised in a society in which they are taught that their only way to salvation is to submit themselves to marriages with much older men. They have no say in the matter (as I mentioned before, they believe that their eternal salvation is dependent upon their acquiescence to these marriages.)
Several high-profile Mormom polygamists have been convicted of sexual crimes against the women and girls they forced into these marriages (Warren Jeffs is arguably the most famous example.)
I know this is a highly sensitive topic, but I honestly believe that polygamy as it is practised within the fundamentalist Mormon church is something that should be punished to the fullest extent of the law.
As to the Mormon faith in general: well, that's kind of where your question falls a bit short, in my humble opinion. As I've already pointed out, polygamy's not a policy that is embraced by the majority of Mormons; it's just that the stories we hear about polygamy in the media have led most people to equate all Mormonism with polygamy -- and that couldn't be further from the truth. All the Mormons I know are members of the mainstream church, and none of them believe that polygamy is okay.
You really can't paint all Mormons with the same brush. I know you probably didn't mean to, but you can't just ask "Did the Mormons have it right?" without pointing out the fact that not all Mormons agree with polygamy.
04/28/2011
I think this is about polygamy - and my answer is - if it floats your boat, why not. If same sex marriage is now main-stream - under the heading of 'consenting adults' why not polygamy?
Many cultures have or still allow it. The aversion to it in Western societies puzzles me. Europe has long since given up any guise of Christianity and the US is probably not far behind.
I have no interest in polygamy - but I also see no reason that it should be forbidden.
Many cultures have or still allow it. The aversion to it in Western societies puzzles me. Europe has long since given up any guise of Christianity and the US is probably not far behind.
I have no interest in polygamy - but I also see no reason that it should be forbidden.
04/28/2011
Quote:
I don't have a problem with polygamy in society in general, but the question was about Mormons specifically -- and the polygamy that fundamentalist Mormons practice is vastly different from what you're referring to. The idea of consent is non-existent in fundamental Mormonism; people in this particular branch of Mormonism are indoctrinated with the idea that polygamy (or "plural marriage", as they call it) is their only way to salvation, and that to refuse to participate in these marriages means excommunication, isolation, and indeed, eternal damnation.
Originally posted by
Gunsmoke
I think this is about polygamy - and my answer is - if it floats your boat, why not. If same sex marriage is now main-stream - under the heading of 'consenting adults' why not polygamy?
Many cultures have or still allow it. The ...
Many cultures have or still allow it. The ...
I think this is about polygamy - and my answer is - if it floats your boat, why not. If same sex marriage is now main-stream - under the heading of 'consenting adults' why not polygamy?
Many cultures have or still allow it. The aversion to it in Western societies puzzles me. Europe has long since given up any guise of Christianity and the US is probably not far behind.
I have no interest in polygamy - but I also see no reason that it should be forbidden.
Many cultures have or still allow it. The aversion to it in Western societies puzzles me. Europe has long since given up any guise of Christianity and the US is probably not far behind.
I have no interest in polygamy - but I also see no reason that it should be forbidden.
So when you have a teenage girl who's been chosen as the second (or fifth, or twelfth) wife of a man years older than her (in most cases, adult men), what can she do? In a lot of cases these girls haven't even reached the age of consent. And they're kept completely in the dark about sex, so they go into these marriages knowing nothing of what's expected of them.
*That's* the problem I have with polygamy as it is practised within the fundamentalist Mormon church. When practised between consenting adults, I don't give a crap if a man has twenty wives. But when you get into the area of children being forced into situations that they are in no way ready for, and that they cannot consent to -- that's when my hackles go up.
04/28/2011
Quote:
I'm with you - underage sex is a different and illegal practice. But that's not unique to polygamy - pedophilia is a crime whether your monogamous, poly or polygamous.
Originally posted by
Kat Shanahan
I don't have a problem with polygamy in society in general, but the question was about Mormons specifically -- and the polygamy that fundamentalist Mormons practice is vastly different from what you're referring to. The idea of consent is
...
I don't have a problem with polygamy in society in general, but the question was about Mormons specifically -- and the polygamy that fundamentalist Mormons practice is vastly different from what you're referring to. The idea of consent is non-existent in fundamental Mormonism; people in this particular branch of Mormonism are indoctrinated with the idea that polygamy (or "plural marriage", as they call it) is their only way to salvation, and that to refuse to participate in these marriages means excommunication, isolation, and indeed, eternal damnation.
So when you have a teenage girl who's been chosen as the second (or fifth, or twelfth) wife of a man years older than her (in most cases, adult men), what can she do? In a lot of cases these girls haven't even reached the age of consent. And they're kept completely in the dark about sex, so they go into these marriages knowing nothing of what's expected of them.
*That's* the problem I have with polygamy as it is practised within the fundamentalist Mormon church. When practised between consenting adults, I don't give a crap if a man has twenty wives. But when you get into the area of children being forced into situations that they are in no way ready for, and that they cannot consent to -- that's when my hackles go up.
So when you have a teenage girl who's been chosen as the second (or fifth, or twelfth) wife of a man years older than her (in most cases, adult men), what can she do? In a lot of cases these girls haven't even reached the age of consent. And they're kept completely in the dark about sex, so they go into these marriages knowing nothing of what's expected of them.
*That's* the problem I have with polygamy as it is practised within the fundamentalist Mormon church. When practised between consenting adults, I don't give a crap if a man has twenty wives. But when you get into the area of children being forced into situations that they are in no way ready for, and that they cannot consent to -- that's when my hackles go up.
Every religion has strange rituals - Muslims have a practice of having a 'temporary' wife to make having sex with a prostitute 'legal'. That's 7th century stuff projected 1300 years forward!
Anyway - we agree!
04/29/2011
I'm not all about telling people who are right and who are wrong. I just don't care about other people that much truthfully. If everyone in the relationship is cool having other wives in the family, than I hope they are happy. But on the other hand the females should be able to do the same thing. And if a grown adult is having sexual relations with a young girl than I would like to be the first person to tell you that I think you would look really good with a hot piece of lead between you eyes.
04/29/2011
If the OP is referring to polygamy, I vote NO. My husband's father, when he was alive, was a polygamist and barely ever saw my husband after the age of 4 because he was too busy with his other wives. Polygamy is degrading to women and is harmful to children as well. There's a reason it has been fading from Sub-Saharan Africa in the last 40 years or so.
07/29/2011
There are lots of reason I know they are wrong.. but putting aside all spiritual and political beliefs, it is still wrong for this reason, aside from all the obvious.. Think of their kids and how it will affect them.. Rather than having 2 parents that absolutely love each other and having what is considered a normal family life, they have a dad and several mothers who have loveless relationships because, lets face it, if you have several wives or husbands than you cant truely love any of them.not the way you're supposed to. and kids can see and understand that. And if that child grows up and decides they dont like that and they prefer to look for a one true love.. they cant ask their parents for advice at all cuz they wouldn't know.. I think its just wrong.
07/29/2011
Quote:
Except there are areas and compounds run by fundamentalist Mormons where the girls are NOT taught that salvation rests on their submission but that they will be elevated in Heaven to Mother Goddess status over a celestial world and will be reunited with their husband and sister-wives to benevolently rule this world. They are not allowed to marry until the accepted age of consent (normally 18 but in some compounds 21) and the boys are NOT run off so the old men have more women. Not surprisingly Mormon women and girls flock to these compounds and non-plural marriage is generally accepted as being equally blessed by God.
Originally posted by
Kat Shanahan
I don't have a problem with polygamy in society in general, but the question was about Mormons specifically -- and the polygamy that fundamentalist Mormons practice is vastly different from what you're referring to. The idea of consent is
...
I don't have a problem with polygamy in society in general, but the question was about Mormons specifically -- and the polygamy that fundamentalist Mormons practice is vastly different from what you're referring to. The idea of consent is non-existent in fundamental Mormonism; people in this particular branch of Mormonism are indoctrinated with the idea that polygamy (or "plural marriage", as they call it) is their only way to salvation, and that to refuse to participate in these marriages means excommunication, isolation, and indeed, eternal damnation.
So when you have a teenage girl who's been chosen as the second (or fifth, or twelfth) wife of a man years older than her (in most cases, adult men), what can she do? In a lot of cases these girls haven't even reached the age of consent. And they're kept completely in the dark about sex, so they go into these marriages knowing nothing of what's expected of them.
*That's* the problem I have with polygamy as it is practised within the fundamentalist Mormon church. When practised between consenting adults, I don't give a crap if a man has twenty wives. But when you get into the area of children being forced into situations that they are in no way ready for, and that they cannot consent to -- that's when my hackles go up.
So when you have a teenage girl who's been chosen as the second (or fifth, or twelfth) wife of a man years older than her (in most cases, adult men), what can she do? In a lot of cases these girls haven't even reached the age of consent. And they're kept completely in the dark about sex, so they go into these marriages knowing nothing of what's expected of them.
*That's* the problem I have with polygamy as it is practised within the fundamentalist Mormon church. When practised between consenting adults, I don't give a crap if a man has twenty wives. But when you get into the area of children being forced into situations that they are in no way ready for, and that they cannot consent to -- that's when my hackles go up.
These compounds don't make the news because they aren't particularly news worthy but they DO exist. Again you can't lump every person identified with a lable into the same category.
All religions attempt to indoctinate the young to believe there is no better way than to follow the dictates of the faith...just in some cases the dictates are not conducive to proper choice and acceptance. That's where the probems begin.
07/29/2011
Quote:
This is a fallacious argument presupposing that love is a sum zero commodity and cannot be shared out amoung many people. That's a lie! My children have two fathers who love them dearly an a mother who loves both men equally and absolutely. We have such a normal family life we are considered boring by our neighbors....and we are poly and pagan. OPENLY poly and pagan.
Originally posted by
lilmamma
There are lots of reason I know they are wrong.. but putting aside all spiritual and political beliefs, it is still wrong for this reason, aside from all the obvious.. Think of their kids and how it will affect them.. Rather than having 2 parents
...
There are lots of reason I know they are wrong.. but putting aside all spiritual and political beliefs, it is still wrong for this reason, aside from all the obvious.. Think of their kids and how it will affect them.. Rather than having 2 parents that absolutely love each other and having what is considered a normal family life, they have a dad and several mothers who have loveless relationships because, lets face it, if you have several wives or husbands than you cant truely love any of them.not the way you're supposed to. and kids can see and understand that. And if that child grows up and decides they dont like that and they prefer to look for a one true love.. they cant ask their parents for advice at all cuz they wouldn't know.. I think its just wrong.
I have been on Mormon compounds where the families are so loving it moved me to tears and the kids were ALL known to their fathers and mothers. This means they KNOW their father and mothers love them and each other fuly and completely...as we are "meant" too.
What you say is akin to saying the Duggars (who embrace another not too popular belief about marriage and child rearing) don't know each of their kids intimately and love them individually...if they can do it (and they do) then why can't a mormon man love each of his wives individually and they love him equally individually?
Kids in a loving pod type community are just as well balanced and social as any other child ALL the research shows this to be true. They have the same hang ups as children raised any other way. My own children show this to be true.
Also it's not that difficult to give advice about monogamy if you are poly...the trials and tribulations are exactly the same. I've been both and I can speak from that position.
07/29/2011
The mainstreams banned it.
The side-streams that practice it have a lot of different approaches, but unfortunately a number of those approaches rely on extreme isolation and the women being told that they have no rights, including no right to leave if they wish.
It would be a good thing if social organizations were able to penetrate isolated compounds and hand out pamphlets to the women telling them that they do have a legal right to leave if they wish, and give them the address of some sort of shelter for them to go to if they do.
(I've heard horror stories about women fleeing across the desert and barely escaping.)
The side-streams that practice it have a lot of different approaches, but unfortunately a number of those approaches rely on extreme isolation and the women being told that they have no rights, including no right to leave if they wish.
It would be a good thing if social organizations were able to penetrate isolated compounds and hand out pamphlets to the women telling them that they do have a legal right to leave if they wish, and give them the address of some sort of shelter for them to go to if they do.
(I've heard horror stories about women fleeing across the desert and barely escaping.)
07/29/2011
Quote:
I have heard of these compounds, and I agree with what you said about lumping every person with a lable into the same category. I personally am a christian. As a christian, its hard to find a church to go to tho because there are SO many "christian" churches with completely different views on the Bible and how it should be interpretted. For Example: Where one Christian church may believe in baptizing, another may not.. etc. And the biggest problem is that if you actually sit down and read Gods word.. there is not a single church that I have found that has their practices "perfect" to the Bible. And I know several people that "claim" to be a christian, but dont live like they ought to. Ya know what I mean? And Im sure there is that in other religions too. Cuz nobody is perfect. My dad has a very good friend who is a fundamentalist Mormon and to talk to him and see how he lives and his faith in God, I would swear he was a christian.. What I said earlier was just about the polygamy part. Not to attack the mormons.
Originally posted by
Airen Wolf
Except there are areas and compounds run by fundamentalist Mormons where the girls are NOT taught that salvation rests on their submission but that they will be elevated in Heaven to Mother Goddess status over a celestial world and will be reunited
...
Except there are areas and compounds run by fundamentalist Mormons where the girls are NOT taught that salvation rests on their submission but that they will be elevated in Heaven to Mother Goddess status over a celestial world and will be reunited with their husband and sister-wives to benevolently rule this world. They are not allowed to marry until the accepted age of consent (normally 18 but in some compounds 21) and the boys are NOT run off so the old men have more women. Not surprisingly Mormon women and girls flock to these compounds and non-plural marriage is generally accepted as being equally blessed by God.
These compounds don't make the news because they aren't particularly news worthy but they DO exist. Again you can't lump every person identified with a lable into the same category.
All religions attempt to indoctinate the young to believe there is no better way than to follow the dictates of the faith...just in some cases the dictates are not conducive to proper choice and acceptance. That's where the probems begin.
These compounds don't make the news because they aren't particularly news worthy but they DO exist. Again you can't lump every person identified with a lable into the same category.
All religions attempt to indoctinate the young to believe there is no better way than to follow the dictates of the faith...just in some cases the dictates are not conducive to proper choice and acceptance. That's where the probems begin.
08/01/2011
I strongly disagree with most points of their religion.
If this is about the small sect of mormons who practice polygamy, I practice a different form of polyamory than them, and I don't really care for the marriage-based sort with the multiple wives thing. It's much too gender-based for me.
If this is about the small sect of mormons who practice polygamy, I practice a different form of polyamory than them, and I don't really care for the marriage-based sort with the multiple wives thing. It's much too gender-based for me.
08/04/2011
Quote:
Gender-based or gender-biased?
Originally posted by
flawlessmendoza
I strongly disagree with most points of their religion.
If this is about the small sect of mormons who practice polygamy, I practice a different form of polyamory than them, and I don't really care for the marriage-based sort with the ...
If this is about the small sect of mormons who practice polygamy, I practice a different form of polyamory than them, and I don't really care for the marriage-based sort with the ...
I strongly disagree with most points of their religion.
If this is about the small sect of mormons who practice polygamy, I practice a different form of polyamory than them, and I don't really care for the marriage-based sort with the multiple wives thing. It's much too gender-based for me.
If this is about the small sect of mormons who practice polygamy, I practice a different form of polyamory than them, and I don't really care for the marriage-based sort with the multiple wives thing. It's much too gender-based for me.
08/05/2011
No, and I'd like to point out that not all mormons believe in Polygamy.
I'm more inclined to think that women should be able to take on multiple partners, while men remain faithful. I remember reading an article to do with genetics and evolution that basically explained a woman's urge to "cheat"/ be with multiple partners as an instinctual necessity.
The idea was that when a woman is most fertile/ want's children she will be attracted to traditionally "alpha" male characteristics, but when she's not she is attracted to the stability and provider-like nature of the "beta" male. Makes sense to me.
I'm more inclined to think that women should be able to take on multiple partners, while men remain faithful. I remember reading an article to do with genetics and evolution that basically explained a woman's urge to "cheat"/ be with multiple partners as an instinctual necessity.
The idea was that when a woman is most fertile/ want's children she will be attracted to traditionally "alpha" male characteristics, but when she's not she is attracted to the stability and provider-like nature of the "beta" male. Makes sense to me.
08/05/2011
Quote:
Except the plural marriage isn't an open relationship, it's very much closed.
Originally posted by
Liz x420x
No they have it completely wrong. An open relationship means women should be allowed to take on more partners too not a man being able to take on as many as he wants while women worship him. Mormons are twisted people like most religions.
I happen to be a deeply religious person and I have to say that most religious people aren't twisted...the ones that are simply get more air time. The ones who are happily content in their beliefs just don't make for interesting News stories.
The women also don't worship thier husbands and would take major offense to that characterization. Also there is supposed to be a limit to the number of wives a man takes...this is an often overlooked rule in some compounds.
08/08/2011
Quote:
If you want to be a follower and act like a man along time ago had some superior knowledge you dont have now that is your business, but lets not highjack the thread with a how dumb and twisted ALL religions are because it will just go on and on.
Originally posted by
Airen Wolf
Except the plural marriage isn't an open relationship, it's very much closed.
I happen to be a deeply religious person and I have to say that most religious people aren't twisted...the ones that are simply get more air time. The ones ...
I happen to be a deeply religious person and I have to say that most religious people aren't twisted...the ones that are simply get more air time. The ones ...
Except the plural marriage isn't an open relationship, it's very much closed.
I happen to be a deeply religious person and I have to say that most religious people aren't twisted...the ones that are simply get more air time. The ones who are happily content in their beliefs just don't make for interesting News stories.
The women also don't worship thier husbands and would take major offense to that characterization. Also there is supposed to be a limit to the number of wives a man takes...this is an often overlooked rule in some compounds.
I happen to be a deeply religious person and I have to say that most religious people aren't twisted...the ones that are simply get more air time. The ones who are happily content in their beliefs just don't make for interesting News stories.
The women also don't worship thier husbands and would take major offense to that characterization. Also there is supposed to be a limit to the number of wives a man takes...this is an often overlooked rule in some compounds.
08/09/2011
This is the only poll I've found yet which is listed as 100% in favor of one response.
I think it is possible to have a positive polygamous experience, but generally, those fundamentalist mormons who do practice polygamy do it as a means of controlling women, and elevating the status of men. It's a disgusting practice.
I think it is possible to have a positive polygamous experience, but generally, those fundamentalist mormons who do practice polygamy do it as a means of controlling women, and elevating the status of men. It's a disgusting practice.
09/06/2011
