How comfortable would you be with a FTM man playing on a woman's Rugby team?

ARJLES ARJLES
My college rugby team is struggling with the issue of transgendered players both within the team and administrators
Answers (private voting - your screen name will NOT appear in the results):
Very Comfortable
54  (60%)
Mildly Comfortable
4  (4%)
Uncomfortable
32  (36%)
Total votes: 90
Poll is closed
03/04/2011
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DeliciousSurprise DeliciousSurprise
I would be extremely uncomfortable with a male identified player on a women's rugby team. I understand that they may not be entirely comfortable on the men's team, but I believe that once you begin to identify with a gender, you should begin living as and participating in sports/clubs/whatnot as your identified gender.

I would be just fine with a transwoman (MtF pre or post op, taking estrogen supplements/injections ) playing on a women's rugby team.

I also know that there are a lot of women's teams who would be fine with having a transman on their team, and it should really be up to the players and coaching staff, but it's not something with which I agree.
03/04/2011
Vaccinium Vaccinium
There's a similar situation going on at George Washington University right now. One of the basketball players on the women's basketball team "came out" before this season (she's a senior) that she is FTM transgendered. I was impressed there was no uproar whatsoever. Her teammates supported her fully, as did the University. She's finishing up her season right now, actually.

I could see it being an issue if she is taking hormones that might give her a competitive advantage, but that would be my only concern.

By the way, I apologize to the transgendereds out there if I offended because of my use of feminine pronouns above. I honestly have no idea what to use, and decided to go with the feminine because I was talking about women's sports.
03/04/2011
Eden C. Eden C.
I know that there is a steroid issue (since testosterone is a steroid) for those in transition.

However, I have played rugby with transpeople and had no problem with them whatsoever. The ciswomen were also very capable of kicking my tiny ass.
03/06/2011
PussyGalore PussyGalore
I'm not sure I really understand the issue here. Is the player on the women's team because the person's biological sex is female? Or because they can't handle playing against the men on the men's team?
03/06/2011
Pleasure Piratess Pleasure Piratess
Quote:
Originally posted by DeliciousSurprise
I would be extremely uncomfortable with a male identified player on a women's rugby team. I understand that they may not be entirely comfortable on the men's team, but I believe that once you begin to identify with a gender, you should begin ... More
I second this!
03/06/2011
P'Gell P'Gell
Quote:
Originally posted by ARJLES
My college rugby team is struggling with the issue of transgendered players both within the team and administrators
I know little to nothing about sports, but the problem being that most sports teams do NOT allow players to take testosterone and most FtM transgendered people are on testosterone.

I know in the Olympics, during the 70s, the Soviet Union had MtF athletes and it was ruled to be unfair. Not to mention illegal. Recently, some female swimmers on The Pill were accused of using steroids, which The Pill actually IS, but it isn't an anabolic steroid.

But, honestly, I don't care enough about sports to care that much, one way or the other.

WAIT. F to M playing on a Woman's team? An F to M Trans person IS A MAN. Legally and hormonally.

I'm confused. Why is someone who identifies as a man playing on a woman's team?
03/06/2011
Eden C. Eden C.
Quote:
Originally posted by P'Gell
I know little to nothing about sports, but the problem being that most sports teams do NOT allow players to take testosterone and most FtM transgendered people are on testosterone.

I know in the Olympics, during the 70s, the Soviet Union had ... More
My school was a single sex school. People would go to that school, then come out as transgendered, and stay because they were enjoying themselves. After all, it was a single SEX school, not a single GENDER school. I know it's an odd situation, but we were all very accepting, and I'm glad I had the chance to meet and be friends with these people.
03/06/2011
BadassFatass BadassFatass
It wouldn't bother me, personally. However, I can see someone having a problem with a person who identifies as male playing on a women's team. Most women don't like the idea of having a guy in their locker room.
03/06/2011
P'Gell P'Gell
Quote:
Originally posted by Eden C.
My school was a single sex school. People would go to that school, then come out as transgendered, and stay because they were enjoying themselves. After all, it was a single SEX school, not a single GENDER school. I know it's an odd situation, ... More
Being friends or going to school with a Trans person isn't what I'm talking about. That makes no difference to me whatsoever. People are people, regardless of their gender identity.

It's the unfair advantage of having a hormonal edge that the other players don't have. Women playing women's sports are at a disadvantage if ONE player is taking testosterone. In most college and professional sports, taking male hormones disqualifies someone from playing a sport. Whether for a medical reason or not.

It has nothing to do with being "friends" with the person, the issue is if it's fair and sportsmanlike conduct.

I couldn't care less, personally, but from a competition standpoint, the FtM person is legally a MAN and thus usually can't legally be playing on a woman's team.

It isn't MY opinion, it's how most competitive teams and colleges make their rules. You could stack a team with people on testosterone, or who were identifying as male, and it wouldn't be ethical.

If it happened enough, (male bodied people playing on women's sports teams) it could destroy the actual reason for Title X. (The law that said women's sports in HS and Colleges should be given the same time, energy and cash outlay as men's sports.)
03/06/2011
Eden C. Eden C.
Quote:
Originally posted by P'Gell
Being friends or going to school with a Trans person isn't what I'm talking about. That makes no difference to me whatsoever. People are people, regardless of their gender identity.

It's the unfair advantage of having a hormonal ... More
Of course, I know what you meant! I was just addressing the potential follow-up question of, "What were trans people doing at a single sex school?"

Honestly, I was on the fence about it. I do feel that a trans person should be able to play with whichever team they feel more comfortable on, but if an FtM begins taking testosterone, he should have to switch to the men's team (as long as his testosterone levels are no higher than that of an average cisman's).
03/06/2011
P'Gell P'Gell
Quote:
Originally posted by Eden C.
Of course, I know what you meant! I was just addressing the potential follow-up question of, "What were trans people doing at a single sex school?"

Honestly, I was on the fence about it. I do feel that a trans person should be able ... More
I don't care if they go to school there. It's the sports question I was replying to.

As for an FtM man playing on a men's team, my guess is the Testosterone would still disqualify him. (I could be wrong, but who knows?) Even those born male bodied, who need to take male hormones for medical reasons are usually excluded from sports in most competitive colleges.

And, as men's natural testosterone levels vary throughout the month and year, it's not a matter how "how much" but "are you taking any steroids?"

People have been disqualified for taking the steroids in asthma inhalers. My guess would be straight up testosterone would be an immediately disqualification in most colleges and all pro-teams. Without regular hormones, most people who are trans will start to lose sexual characteristics fairly quickly.
03/06/2011
hjtee hjtee
If it's an ftm, living full time as a man, I would be a little uncomfortable with it. If the person is a man (which ftm are) then he should be playing with the men. I can't think of any reason to put him on the womans team.
This one is going to baffle me all day.
03/28/2011
racoons racoons
Fuck that. They shuold accept him in the team!
03/28/2011
soyandapplecrisp soyandapplecrisp
I think a female to male should be playing on a male's team, as that's what they identify with.
03/30/2011
Modern^Spank^Anthem Modern^Spank^Anthem
i'd be uncomfortable if they were taking hormones that could give them a physical advantage against other players
04/21/2011
G.L. Morrison G.L. Morrison
I think the question has more to do with the college's policy. Do they ban FTM players from joining the men's team? Was the transman already a member of the team before beginning transition? The difficulty may be very real that the college wants to avoid liability of exposing the transperson to violence by other players.

The other issues to consider. Where is zie in zir process? Someone who passes as male doesn't need permission to try out or play for the men's team (although they may choose to be out for political or personal reasons or may have begun transitioning while enrolled there and therefore made a very public change).

In a non-binary life, there isn't always a clear line about when one moves from one static point (female) to another (male). And what about people who choose an inbetween state? Who choose not to have top surgery and therefore end up with a full beard and very hairy chest but still big-boobed? That really messes with people's gender-reading skills. Can they be legally restricted from playing team sports?

I think the sensible thing for colleges to do is create mixed gender teams --in addition to letting players go where they feel comfortable. Until there are enough transplayers to make their own team LOL.
06/05/2011
thebest thebest
what DeliciousSurprise said
06/28/2011
Sir Sir
I would be uncomfortable if I was a woman, I suppose? Maybe? He's a man, let him play on the men's team. The whole reason that a person identifies as FtM is because they feel that they are a man. I could see him maybe fighting more to be on the men's team, but the women's team? That makes no sense...

That said, I do not find segregated teams to be necessary to begin with. But since they are that way, if he identifies as a man, then he's a man and should be on the men's team. But I do understanding a transgendered man who has transitioned while on his team wanting to stay - some team members get really emotionally attached to their teammates.

Administrators, that's different. I would say that administrators should be able to identify as whatever they want - isn't it the players' identities that really matters, not the administrators?

In all honesty, I do not personally care, but I can see why others would. It's really your call, how you feel about that person as a teammate and their reasoning for wanting to stay or wanting to be on the team.
06/30/2011
Sir Sir
Quote:
Originally posted by Vaccinium
There's a similar situation going on at George Washington University right now. One of the basketball players on the women's basketball team "came out" before this season (she's a senior) that she is FTM transgendered. I was ... More
Male pronouns are correct. If a person identifies as male, then they are male, and male pronouns are proper, regardless of whether you're referring to them in regards to women's sports or not.

Hormones do not give a competitive advantage, in all honesty. Not the right level that are used for transitioning. They only give an advantage if the drug is abused and taken in high dosages, which this can happen with anyone, not just trans- individuals. I don't think that it's really fair to pick out the trans- individuals for that reason, as the only advantages a person may have are due to abuse of the hormones and extreme training.
06/30/2011
AriBoi AriBoi
Quote:
Originally posted by Sir
Male pronouns are correct. If a person identifies as male, then they are male, and male pronouns are proper, regardless of whether you're referring to them in regards to women's sports or not.

Hormones do not give a competitive ... More
Actually, hormones WOULD give an FTM a physical advantage over women, thus it would be logical for an FTM on hormones to be on the male team. He would physically be equal to MEN in that case. If it's an FTM pre-hormones, it would be logical for him to be on the female team as the other guys would have an advantage over him, however if he wanted to join the male team (even though he's not on hormones) and policy didn't prevent him from doing so, then why not? His choice, their choice.
07/16/2011
Sir Sir
Quote:
Originally posted by AriBoi
Actually, hormones WOULD give an FTM a physical advantage over women, thus it would be logical for an FTM on hormones to be on the male team. He would physically be equal to MEN in that case. If it's an FTM pre-hormones, it would be logical for ... More
No, it would not give the individual a physical advantage. There is nothing that has been proven medically that says that a person who has gone through hormone replacement treatment has a physical advantage/disadvantage .
07/16/2011
AriBoi AriBoi
Quote:
Originally posted by Sir
No, it would not give the individual a physical advantage. There is nothing that has been proven medically that says that a person who has gone through hormone replacement treatment has a physical advantage/disadvantage .
You mean to say that there is no proof that individuals with typical adult-male ranges of testosterone in their systems gain muscle easier/faster and thus have more strength on average than their female counterparts? Have you ever SEEN transmen? Many have worked out like crazy pre-transition and get nice definition, etc. but it can't compare to the muscles and strength and energy they have once on testosterone - which becomes equal to cisgendered males who put in equal effort.
07/16/2011
[Red] [Red]
I wouldn't give a fuck, honestly. Still the same person, still the same teammate, and I don't care about the physical performance differences between males and females, regardless whether they're cisgendered or otherwise.

Just play the damn game.
08/29/2011
PassionCpl PassionCpl
I wouldn't care. If they can do the same as everyone else on the team then why not?
10/24/2011
Rawhide Rawhide
I played on a womens rugby team at a women's college, and over time we had several people join who were transgendered. We also had people begin transitioning after joining the team. I had no problem whatsoever with this, but that was due to one big determining factor: none of these players had started taking testosterone yet. This is rather common for transmen who begin their transition in college, at least it was at my school.

Testosterone gives you an unfair advantage in women's sports, period. Other players would have been suspended for using it. There are FTMs who identify fully as men but never use testosterone, and everyone transitions in their own way at their own pace. If an FTM feels strongly about playing women's sports in college, he should wait to start testosterone. I know of many players who did just that.
10/24/2011
The Curious Couple The Curious Couple
I wouldn't care one way or another. It doesn't make me feel uncomfortable at all.
10/24/2011
Rhinobaby Rhinobaby
My college rugby team welcomes trans players. We have occasionally run up against other teams or sirs who don't understand this choice, so in order to reduce conflict we encourage dialogue with teams prior to playing them. This way, any concerns can be discussed and worked out long before we step onto the pitch.
11/14/2011
Owl Identified Owl Identified
Quote:
Originally posted by DeliciousSurprise
I would be extremely uncomfortable with a male identified player on a women's rugby team. I understand that they may not be entirely comfortable on the men's team, but I believe that once you begin to identify with a gender, you should begin ... More
I agree. I wouldn't feel comfortable playing on a coed team, and if this person identifies as a man? I wouldn't want him to play on my team. Nothing personal, but I wouldn't want to play a contact sport with men. Basketball? Sure. Rugby? Not so much. Like you, I would have no issue with a trans woman at any stage of transition - including her not beginning any form of physical transition or change in her presentation - just so long as she IDs as a woman. Her choices about hormones, surgeries and anything else concerning her body, mind and identity are decidedly none of my business and totally irrelevant.

I also see that some teams might not care if a trans man played on their women's team. For those teams, more power to them. Again, I understand the very serious and real safety issue that concerns trans men when it comes to choosing bathrooms, locker rooms, sports teams and other sexed spaces. However, I don't know if universally sacrificing women's spaces is the solution to that concern. On the other hand, the concern cannot be disregarded simply to preserve those women's spaces, because it means throwing trans men under the bus. It's a really tough call, and I agree for the time being it should probably be called on a case by case basis by the people involved. Hard and fast rules on something like this just wouldn't make sense.

The question left unasked here though, is where does someone genderqueer or otherwise non-conforming to a fixed sex identity fit in? Where is their safe space?
11/14/2011
Schattenstern Schattenstern
Athletics should be based on hormone levels, unfortunately.
03/14/2012
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