Male bodied/Female bodied

Hmmmm, maybe these reviewers are trying to be politically correct?

I have a thought. Could it be that these reviewers may be referring to transsexual individuals who may be slightly different in anatomy due to differing surgical techniques? That thought is going way out on a limb but really that's the only reason I can think of to use terminology like that.

I have to agree, from a writer's perspective, it just seems like additional words to say male bodied, instead of simply male. If you are referring to a product that is specifically designed to work with the clit, then say so rather than using terminology whose purpose is not widely understood.

I understand that some people desire to be all-inclusive when writing, but when I see a review that says a product will work for female-bodied, MtF, FAAB (I'll be honest, I have no idea what FAAB even means. Google it and you get Free Agent Aquisition Budget amoung many other things that have nothing to do with gender or sexual identity) and additional descriptions, I just end up thinking it would be more clear and less confusing to the reader if you'd simply said the product would work vaginally.

It is possible and should be the goal of a review to be clear and concise, using language most, if not all, people are generally familiar with in a fashion consistent with the generally accepted definition.

The point, after all, is to clearly communicate your opinion to as many people as possible.

I agree.


And now you really have me curious what FAAB is.

I think FAAB means "female assigned at birth."

Wow... things get complicated for nothing.

And I agree with what's been said.

I do not believe it's necessary to make everything body or gender neutral in the fear that we might offend someone. Honestly, if I were a transgendered male to female, I would like to fit in the category of women and think of my genital organs as a vagina. So, no, I do not think I would be offended.

It's almost like doing positive discrimination. So, whether or not you try to be nice, by giving them a special category, you are being discriminative in denying access to being a female or a male, depending on the direction of the surgery. Yes, we know they were not born like one, but what did they want? Be a female/male or something in between?

Good point, but by making that distinction, you are somehow simplifying the MtF who does identify as female and may not want to be perceived as a male in the body of a female.

However, we are in a community related to sex toys, and like Laurel said, I think the person will not mind if we speak about the physical parts for which a sex toy is made.

Note: I am sorry if I seem a little rude about the topic, I'm not transgender-phobic or anything, it's just imagining all the fuss and the complications that we would have to go through that I find frustrating.

This is all well and good except the point of a review is to help sell a product, not educate the general public. It makes more business sense to write something which makes sense and applies to most readers than something which could potentially alienate a small group of customers. I'm not saying it's not important to be politically correct, understanding and compassionate individuals but that is not the point (nor should it be, IMO) of a review.

Furthermore, I am appalled at the suggestion that trans-men are somehow ignorant to the fact that the medical term for that orifice is "vagina." I understand that gender identity is complicated for some but it comes off like you're saying people are so emotionally vested that they cannot possibly understand that, which I find quite insulting.

Are we not supposed to use anatomical terms now? Then what do we say? And if we don't specify that some toys are intended or only safe for vaginal use, it could very well imply that anal use is safe when it is not.

Actually, the point of a review is NOT to sell a product but give an honest and thorough run-down of what it is, how it works and did it work.

You also are assuming that you know the assigned genders of the people shopping on this site, and whether or not their present genders line up with that. You can't possibly know those things and therefore you cannot possible say what kind of business Edenfantasys would be losing by instructing people like myself not to use those terms.

I also never suggested that trans men (no hyphen, "trans" is an adjective that qualifies a noun, trans men are not a mystical third sex) don't know what a vagina is. Ever. I'm not even sure how you possibly could have read that in what I wrote. Considering the bullshit trans men have to go through to present their bodies the way they want to and name them the way they want to, especially when met with this very kind of resistance, I'm pretty sure by now most English speaking trans men have heard the word "vagina" a few times. I said using that term exclusively and not making any allowance for trans men is alienating and triggering. Seriously, scroll up and read my comment. That's exactly what it says. Triggering and alienating. Not "confusing because they won't know what it means". Triggering. And alienating. Which it is for many (but not all) trans men.

I'm not telling anyone what words they can and can't use, and I'd really appreciate it if people didn't chastise me for using the words that I want to use. If this is a problem, then quite frankly, this is not a community that I want to be a part of. I write pretty damn good reviews. They are consistently highly rated as either useful or extremely useful. People seem to be coming out of my reviews with an understanding of the product, and a pretty good one. I work hard choosing my words very carefully with my reviews, I take reviewing pretty seriously because sex and sexuality are really important to me. If my word choices were a problem, you'd think I wouldn't be getting such positive feedback.

If selling products to cis people is more important than serving and selling to trans people then I'm not interested. If after all of the work I put into my reviews all people can say is they don't like that I'm trying not to make someone feel like shit about their body, I'm not sure if this is the right place for me. I'm not going to knowingly make anyone feel bad about themselves just to get a few free dildos. It's not worth it to me.

Greatly seconded.

I completely agree with you.

We are discussing the aspect of using specific terms to fit everyone. I think you are exagerating the point here. I do not see anyone making a personal attack against anyone's gender. And from my experience, it had brought up interesting conversations in a review's comments, nothing discrimatory or hateful.

I agree that the goal of making a review is not to sell it, but a review is made according to YOUR experience as well. What have you used the product with? If in your case, the female-bodied is what you actually relate to and it works for you, it's perfect. You said yourself that your reviews were always found particularly useful.

But I think Carrie Ann wanted to know if it would have been everyone's expectation to start using particular terms as a norm. I did not particularly notice, but I think that for instance people perfectly women-minded with perfectly good vaginas may have started that. Her question was, is it necessary for people who fit in stereotypical standards to do so? Most of us agree that no, it's not. She never intended to make you feel like you should stop, and I am pretty sure it was not the goal of anyone else here.

Here, here.

As much as I hate to say it, the PC-ness is getting a little out of control. I mean, are you telling me it's "offensive" to call someone who was born female but psychologically feels more like a male a woman? It's offensive to be a woman?

Somehow, I don't think that's the message we're trying to put out there.

I'm not entirely sure why this has turned so dramatic.

I made an observation. No one is saying you can't word your reviews as you like. No one is saying we don't support trans folks. No one is chastising anyone.

Personally, for me, I don't get it. Which is why I asked. It seems to point out the differences more than anything. Our trans reviewers - Gabe, Sinclair Sexsmith, Misha - all use anatomical terms in their own reviews.

I don't understand how a trans person, shopping on a general, non specific sex site, would feel triggered by reading a review I wrote where I used the words "this vibrator is ideal for vaginal use."

This is why I asked. So we could all discuss it, see how folks felt. No one is telling you what you can or can't do, no one is saying your reviews are bad, no one is saying cis people are more important than trans. And certainly no one is saying to make folks feel like shit about their bodies.

I do, however, think that sometimes we go too far in the other direction and wonder if it's necessary.

I'm sorry you felt picked on by this discussion. That was not my intent.

I simply wanted to see how others felt and perhaps have some good discussion about things to help ALL of us learn. That's part of respecting and supporting all sexualities, right? Talking, learning, putting our thoughts and opinions out there, understanding each other?

Just because three trans people use a certain set of terms doesn't mean all trans people are comfortable with them. One person saying they prefer a term doesn't give anyone permission to apply it universally. Some people of color are comfortable re-appropriating racial slurs like the "n" word. That doesn't mean that every person of color like that word; many don't and are triggered by it. It's ultimately not important if cis people don't 100% get why some words can be triggering; it's just important that they respect that these words can do that. Furthermore, the reviewers you named are three trans reviewers that 1.) identify with their trans history and 2.) are open about it. There are many people on this site that are trans that don't broadcast it. This is just as valid as people that are open with their transition histories, and we need to respect both groups.

People make a lot of assumptions about what's in someone's pants and how they identify with what's there, and it's wrong. If one critically reads Gabe's articles and reviews, you can see that he's very clearly advocating for respecting all gender identities and bodies --including genderqueer people who also can be triggered or alienated by medical terms. Although other trans members of the Edenfantasys community have taken issue with some aspects of his writing, which just goes to show you how diverse the trans community (like any community) is.

I showed this thread to a couple of my trans dude friends and one of my genderqueer friends and they were all totally upset and turned off. One of them actually does reviews on this site. There are going to be other trans men that don't see what the fuss is over. But the point is that I'd rather have some people shrugging and going "Why is she being so wordy?" instead of have others not wanting to shop on this site or participate in discussions because they feel unwelcome. And that's how these kinds of discussions make many people, myself included, feel.

There is always resistance when marginalized groups want to assert ownership over their bodies and lives. Other people not within those groups are always going to feel weird when the words they are used to using to name and define other people's bodies and lives are decentralized. But that's progress. It's no different than people of color drawing lines in the sand about how they want to be identified. Or women declaring that they find some terms derogatory. It's disabled people speaking out against slurs used against them. While the term "vagina" is not a slur, it's just not an accurate or comfortable way of naming some bodies. When a trans man begins taking testosterone, trust me, his genitals don't look anything like a cis woman's. It's the right of every person to name their bodies the way they are comfortable with, and if this community is truly accepting of ALL gender identities, it needs to support this. It doesn't mean you have to use the words, but it also doesn't mean opening a thread calling into question whether or not these words are "necessary". To answer your question, yes, these words are absolutely necessary for many people. If they don't apply to ya, pick the one that does (like I said, I use slashes for that reason) and move on.

I do not notice those terms if they are appropriate and flow in nicely with the text. If they stick out awkwardly, they seem like more of a political statement than something that adds to the review. Like most language, just use it correctly and beautifully, and everyone's happy, right?