CDC considering advocating circumcision?

Champagne and Benzedrine (Roland Hulme) Champagne and Benzedrine (Roland Hulme)
As you might have heard, the CDC is considering advocating circumcision for American infants, citing some reports that it can reduce HIV transmission by as much as 50% for men.

Now, you all know my feelings towards circumcision (if not, read it here link) But I'll stick to facts, rather than opinion.

I would like to ask a hypothetical question.

According to 'Guidelines for the Management and Post Exposure Prophylaxis of Individuals who Sustain Nonoccupational Exposure to HIV, ANCAHRD/CTARC Bulletin, February 2001' a uncircumcised man has a 1 in 725 chance of being infected with HIV from having unprotected intercourse (with him doing the insertion.) That's each time - obviously it's like playing the lottery every time you have sex.

Based on the CDC assumption that circumcision cuts that risk by 50%, a man has a 1,250 chance of getting infected.

And, finally, assuming that a man's foreskin (containing 50,000 nerve endings) is equivalent to a woman's clitoris (also containing 50,000 nerve endings) I asked the following:

If you knew it would reduce your daughter's chance of HIV infection, should she choose to have unprotected sex with somebody who was possibly infected, from 1 in 750 to 1 in 1,250, would you advocate a 'clitectomy' - removing her clitoris - at birth, like the CDC is advocating boys are circumcised?

Now, don't worry too much about the facts. I'm sure they're debatable and I accept that I might have made a few assumptions. Just concentrate on the question.

If it reduced the risk, would you cut off your infant daughter's clitoris?

I apologise in advance for anybody I offend with this question, but it's something I'm very passionate about and am curious.
08/24/2009
  • Weekly Special: Sexy Savings
  • Save 15% on Luxury Brands
  • Annual Clearance - Save 30%
  • Buy Cascade vibe and save 50% on lubricants!
  • Save 20% on self-lubricating Cascade vibe and sleeve kit
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
All promotions
spicywife spicywife
We wouldn't do either. But this is a very heated subject so I hope this post will stay clean.
08/24/2009
Champagne and Benzedrine (Roland Hulme) Champagne and Benzedrine (Roland Hulme)
Quote:
Originally posted by spicywife
We wouldn't do either. But this is a very heated subject so I hope this post will stay clean.
Thanks for your input!
08/24/2009
imp imp
I refused to have my son circumsised. I still stand by my choice. That's his body and I have no right cutting off parts of his anatomy. If, he has issues later on in life then I will support him in any decision and deal with it if and when it happens but honestly it completely did not make any sense to me to do that to him. I have no qualms if anyone else chooses to do so but I'd hope I was respected for making an informed choice. Doctors here are very hard to find as far as those who will do the proceedure nowdays. We would have had to go out of town to get the circumscision done.

Daughter or son, I don't agree with deciding/having that kind of power whether or not their anatomy stays intact or not. I gave birth to them I don't however have power over their asthetic body choices.

But hey thats just me.
08/24/2009
Adriana Ravenlust Adriana Ravenlust
I personally prefer circumcision and this news might make me more likely to have it done for any sons I might have but I still wouldn't do a 'clitectomy'. I understand your hypothetical question but it's hard not to think "but those are two different things" or "but it doesn't work that way".
08/24/2009
Champagne and Benzedrine (Roland Hulme) Champagne and Benzedrine (Roland Hulme)
Quote:
Originally posted by Adriana Ravenlust
I personally prefer circumcision and this news might make me more likely to have it done for any sons I might have but I still wouldn't do a 'clitectomy'. I understand your hypothetical question but it's hard not to think "but ... More
That's my problem. Why is it 'ok' to remove nerve-rich flesh from an infant boy (without his consent) but not okay to do the same to a little girl?

I appreciate your honest and straightforward answer, though. Thanks.
08/24/2009
Tuesday Tuesday
Quote:
Originally posted by Champagne and Benzedrine (Roland Hulme)
That's my problem. Why is it 'ok' to remove nerve-rich flesh from an infant boy (without his consent) but not okay to do the same to a little girl?

I appreciate your honest and straightforward answer, though. Thanks.
I wouldn't do either one. My son is uncircumcised. From what I understand, men who have foreskins really like them. A circumcised penis may look better, but that's not enough of a reason. Neither is reducing HIV risk from small to even smaller.
08/24/2009
Tuesday Tuesday
Quote:
Originally posted by imp
I refused to have my son circumsised. I still stand by my choice. That's his body and I have no right cutting off parts of his anatomy. If, he has issues later on in life then I will support him in any decision and deal with it if and when it ... More
Here's to uncircumcised sons!

And note that, at least when my son was born, they don't use more than a topical anesthetic for circumcision.

But for the day I was in the hospital after giving birth they asked me if I wanted him circumcised about a half a dozen times even though I indicated no-circ on my pre-admission forms.
08/24/2009
spicywife spicywife
Quote:
Originally posted by Tuesday
I wouldn't do either one. My son is uncircumcised. From what I understand, men who have foreskins really like them. A circumcised penis may look better, but that's not enough of a reason. Neither is reducing HIV risk from small to even smaller.
a 1 in 725 chance is not enough to make a huge decision like that for your child. We ended up having a girl, but we had already made the decision to not do a circumcision if the baby was a boy. I honestly think that people should be required to research circumcision and really understand what it is and how it is done before they have it done to their child.
08/24/2009
spicywife spicywife
Quote:
Originally posted by spicywife
a 1 in 725 chance is not enough to make a huge decision like that for your child. We ended up having a girl, but we had already made the decision to not do a circumcision if the baby was a boy. I honestly think that people should be required to ... More
We would have had to go to a hospital if we did a circ I guess, because we had a home birth.
08/24/2009
Tuesday Tuesday
Quote:
Originally posted by spicywife
We would have had to go to a hospital if we did a circ I guess, because we had a home birth.
And they should have to watch a video of a baby being circumcised, screaming all the while.

I so wanted a home birth. It just wasn't in the cards.
08/24/2009
Alan & Michele Alan & Michele
We didn't have our son circumcised when he was born. A foreskin is natural so I couldn't help but wonder who's bright idea it was to chop them off for...what? A culturally acceptable look? Anyway, he's never complained about it, nor has anybody he's been with, and I'm not worried about him getting HIV because he isn't stupid enough to play around with unprotected sex.
08/24/2009
imp imp
Quote:
Originally posted by spicywife
a 1 in 725 chance is not enough to make a huge decision like that for your child. We ended up having a girl, but we had already made the decision to not do a circumcision if the baby was a boy. I honestly think that people should be required to ... More
I totally agree. What annoyed me the most was the nagging from others to have my son circumsised because of social pressure. Informed choice is important with anything concerning your own children these days.
08/24/2009
deceased deceased
Quote:
Originally posted by Tuesday
And they should have to watch a video of a baby being circumcised, screaming all the while.

I so wanted a home birth. It just wasn't in the cards.
Babies scream all the time after they are born, often for no reason. Most ddon't scream during circumcision, nor do they feel it either. We give them" sweet ease" which is like liquid valium. Then we inject the foreskin with 1 percent lidocaine and it goes numb. The baby only feels it the first few times when he pees, but its soothed with a bacitracin and zinc mixture and wrapped in gauze with every diaper change.
Penises with circs are easier to keep clean, they don't get adhesions from smegma, and they are less likely to harbor infections or develop skin cancers. On the other hand, doctors make a bundle of money for this 3 minute procedure.
08/24/2009
deceased deceased
Circumsison is a right of passage in many cultures, not just Islamic and Judaic cultures, but in many parts of Asia and Africa as well. Most fathers want their son's penises to look like their own. AAt the hospital I work, circs are voluntaty, and in the hospital, covered by insurance. The parents overwhelmingly choose it, and the majority of our newborns are Fillipino followed by Japanese, Micronesian, Chinese, Samoan. Hawaiian mixed with many cultures, then white, and occasionally African American, Vietnamese and Korean.

The decision is always the parents'.
08/24/2009
ZenaidaMacroura ZenaidaMacroura
I'm pretty much on the fence about circumcision. I've heard so much for it and so much against it, it can be confusing. My family, including my husband, see nothing wrong with circumcision and are kind of opposed to not having it done. My mom quotes some Bible stuff (which I can't remember), and then I feel like I shouldn't even question it because it's the "way it's supposed to be." But when I hear from circumcised men who have had problems because of it, it's just hard to be so okay with it. I don't have any kids, but when I do, I want to have a definite idea of whether to do it or not.
08/24/2009
Adriana Ravenlust Adriana Ravenlust
Quote:
Originally posted by Champagne and Benzedrine (Roland Hulme)
That's my problem. Why is it 'ok' to remove nerve-rich flesh from an infant boy (without his consent) but not okay to do the same to a little girl?

I appreciate your honest and straightforward answer, though. Thanks.
Because most circumcised men still enjoy a happy and healthy sex life where doing the same to a woman is much more likely to wreck hers irreparably? I mean your blog post makes it seem like cut men cannot enjoy sex and woe is them but that's news to my husband who certainly has no issues. He was circumcised as a young teen, by his choice, and believes so strongly in it that I think it could be a breaking point in our relationship if I wasn't okay with it as well.

I honestly feel like the facts for either side measure up pretty equally so it comes down to personal preference. With that said, I wouldn't "discriminate" against partners who weren't cut and would have no problem with letting my son choose for himself as opposed to doing it when he's a baby.
08/25/2009
Tuesday Tuesday
Quote:
Originally posted by Adriana Ravenlust
Because most circumcised men still enjoy a happy and healthy sex life where doing the same to a woman is much more likely to wreck hers irreparably? I mean your blog post makes it seem like cut men cannot enjoy sex and woe is them but that's news ... More
I'm curious. Why did your husband want to be circumcised? Was he having problems with his foreskin?
08/25/2009
Tuesday Tuesday
Quote:
Originally posted by Adriana Ravenlust
Because most circumcised men still enjoy a happy and healthy sex life where doing the same to a woman is much more likely to wreck hers irreparably? I mean your blog post makes it seem like cut men cannot enjoy sex and woe is them but that's news ... More
Also, the book "Bonk", by Mary Roach, which I highly recommend, states that circumcised women still masturbate the same way uncircumcised women do, rubbing the same area. The clitoris extends deep inside. So it might be the equivalent of male circumcision even though it certainly seems much worse.
08/25/2009
Red Red
I hear that condom use is pretty darned effective at stopping HIV, call me crazy, I know...

It scares me that crap like this becomes a focal point - what does it teach kids? Well, potentially that they're safer because they're circumcised, so why bother with a condom (cause those don't work anyways...right?). And frankly, what an abuse of stats. YES that is a 50% improvement.....but lets compare the numbers to people contacting HIV when using condoms and without, and all of a sudden this "added" margin of safety becomes literally a drop in the bucket.

Perspective. Perspective.

And nope, I will not circumcise a son if I have one...unless it's a restrictive foreskin, or something.
08/25/2009
Red Red
Quote:
Originally posted by Champagne and Benzedrine (Roland Hulme)
As you might have heard, the CDC is considering advocating circumcision for American infants, citing some reports that it can reduce HIV transmission by as much as 50% for men.

Now, you all know my feelings towards circumcision (if not, read ... More
Unfortunately, foreskin does not equal clit. It equals clit hood and inner labia (if I understand correctly, happy to be shown the error in my ways).

And I could see having a very long narrow clit hood making it difficult to clean out pussy jam, and wanting it to be trimmed back or removed to aid in cleaning. I could see it becoming so troublesome, infection would be a concern. And I could even see parents making that call.

I think there *is* strange societal pressure about circumcision, as in, I think a lot of North American families tend to do it because it's the norm (religious reasons aside), but what do I know?

and yeah, I totally just used the phrase "pussy jam"...
08/25/2009
Champagne and Benzedrine (Roland Hulme) Champagne and Benzedrine (Roland Hulme)
I'm really pleased so many people on this forum are against it.

Kuuipogal - when you say the decision is 'always the parents,' I TOTALLY disagree. Children aren't property. It's not a parent's right to remove part of a child's genitals, whether they're a boy or girl. I figure, if that's a decision you think is right for them, wait until they're old enough to decide for themselves.
08/25/2009
Champagne and Benzedrine (Roland Hulme) Champagne and Benzedrine (Roland Hulme)
Quote:
Originally posted by Red
Unfortunately, foreskin does not equal clit. It equals clit hood and inner labia (if I understand correctly, happy to be shown the error in my ways).

And I could see having a very long narrow clit hood making it difficult to clean out ... More
Hi Red,

I think the glans is probably the male equivalent of the clit, so you're right - but I still think people would have a problem paring off 50,000 nerve endings from a girl's genitals (be it labia, hood or whatever) whereas it's par for the course with boys.

And a women who has had a 'clitectomy' can still be sexual being - there's the g-spot and the labia etc. Likewise, a man without a foreskin can still have a fulfilling sex life. But AS fulfilling? Nobody can know. Even Adriana's husband had the procedure when he was in his teens, so probably wasn't old enough to be sexually active to make a comparison.

The fact is, why is it acceptable to cut up a boy's genitals, but a girl's genitals are considered sacred. Double standard? Totally. Surely we have a right to remain intact until we can make that decision on our own.
08/25/2009
Envy Envy
This reminds me of a little story I read in my psychology book.

These parents wanted their boy to be circumcized. The doctors effed up and actually cut his whole thing OFF. Not knowing what to do, and with the ok from the parents, they also took his balls off and sculpted him between the legs to look like a girl. The parents gave him a girl name and raised him as a girl.

Years later there were problems. He was very aggressive, tried to wear men's clothing, and as he got even older, was attracted to women. He couldn't understand what was wrong with him, etc. His parents finally told him. Outraged, when old enough he saw a doctor and they graphed new male genetiles on him. He got married but I guess he still had problems with things? He ended up commiting suicide later on.

That's just somewhat of a synopsis from what I remember, it's been a while since I read that story.


As for having it cut, IF my bf and I have a child and it's a boy, we're NOT having the skin cut off. My bf is uncut, as is the men in his family, and same with my family, they're not cut. Oh wow, it'll cut down infection, blah blah, then why not cut a whole slew of other things off us while we're at it? Nails have bacteria under them, let's cut them off the fingers! [/sarcasm] It's no different than cropping a dog's ears or tail for asthetic purposes. (In my opinion.)
08/25/2009
Champagne and Benzedrine (Roland Hulme) Champagne and Benzedrine (Roland Hulme)
Quote:
Originally posted by Envy
This reminds me of a little story I read in my psychology book.

These parents wanted their boy to be circumcized. The doctors effed up and actually cut his whole thing OFF. Not knowing what to do, and with the ok from the parents, they also ... More
Thanks for writing this!

David Reimer was the name of that poor boy: link What a horrible story.
08/25/2009
Envy Envy
Quote:
Originally posted by Champagne and Benzedrine (Roland Hulme)
Thanks for writing this!

David Reimer was the name of that poor boy: link What a horrible story.
Ya! I didn't remember his name and might have gotten some of the story wrong, but I was hoping I was close to it--don't want to spread false info!

And yes, it's truly horrible and sad. I read it for both Child Developmental Psych and I think Social Psych, so 2 different textbooks had the article in them.
08/25/2009
Liz2 Liz2
Circumcision is one of the many choices parents make about their children as are vaccinations. I would probably have a son circumcised as I know of guys that have been circumcised later on and it is awful.
08/25/2009
spicywife spicywife
Some hospitals may use some type of anesthesia but not all do.

"Circumcision on male neonates without benefit of anesthesia or analgesia is common practice. Disregard of pain experienced by infants during this procedure almost never occurs in older children or adults. The belief that pain is not experienced in the same way by infants, or that it is inconsequential, continues to pervade pediatric practice despite data that infants do experience pain with at least short-term significant sequelae. Some of the most compelling data reflect a stress response to more intense pain that affects physiological stability, morbidity, and behavior."
08/25/2009
spicywife spicywife
Quote:
Originally posted by imp
I totally agree. What annoyed me the most was the nagging from others to have my son circumsised because of social pressure. Informed choice is important with anything concerning your own children these days.
Indeed. We would have experienced that too but we didn't know the sex of our baby until she was born and circumcision never came up with the family members that would have objected to a non-circ. We certainly were nagged about our other decisions though (homebirth, etc). But really, it doesn't matter what others think. I try to urge that to people who are having their choices condemned by family or friends.
08/25/2009
deceased deceased
Quote:
Originally posted by Liz2
Circumcision is one of the many choices parents make about their children as are vaccinations. I would probably have a son circumcised as I know of guys that have been circumcised later on and it is awful.
You are right. We have done adult circs and its a painful ordeal for weeks. Babies get over it very quickly. They don't seem to mind till the little guy wets his diaper. By the third day, they are pretty much healed. An adult has to have general anesthesia, a baby gets a sedative and a local injection. They all get local injections of lidocaine with a little epinephrine so they have minimal bleeding. In the years I have worked post partum, I have yet to see a botched circ. I am neither for or against it, I am for the parents to decide and not to be pressured into it at all.
08/25/2009
Total posts: 91
Unique posters: 30