Perhaps this is more of a controversial Discussion.. Reader Beware.

The New Intimacy

Perhaps this is more of a controversial Discussion.. Reader Beware.

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Contributor: Breas Breas
This may be a longer post.. so bare with me..

I had previously asked for suggestions on "based on true stories" films. I was suggested a film about the man from Germany who placed an ad looking for someone who wanted to be eaten. I had heard about this awhile ago, but never really knew the details of it or anything.

I haven't been able to find the film yet, but last night I was doing a bunch of reading on-line about this specific story. I was reading the wikipedia page on Armin Meiwes which you can find here: link

but to sum it up Im going to copy and paste a few sections..

Looking for a willing victim, Meiwes posted an advertisement at a website, The Cannibal Cafe, whose disclaimer mentions the distinction between reality and fantasy. Meiwes's post stated that he was "looking for a well-built 18 to 30-year-old to be slaughtered and then consumed".[4] Bernd Jürgen Brandes then answered the advertisement. Many other people responded to the advertisement, but backed out; Meiwes did not attempt to force them to do anything against their will.

On 30 January 2004, Meiwes was convicted of manslaughter and sentenced to 8 years in prison. The case attracted considerable media attention and led to a debate over whether Meiwes could be convicted at all, given that Bernd Jürgen Brandes had voluntarily and knowingly participated in the act.[2]


There are more details on the page... talking about how they videotaped the entire thing. The guy who wanted to be eaten by Meiwes consented to having this done.

Okay, so yes this is disturbing. I know that. But I am wondering what others' think of his sentence, considering the participant agreed and even wanted to be eaten.. Do you think his sentence was too light? Or do you think he shouldn't have been sentenced at all? Is there a point where two adults consenting to something should involve the law? Should the law stay out of it?

There really is no right or wrong answer since this is just to hear others' opinions on this story. It's definitely an odd one and seems so unreal to me. Anyways, all opinions are welcome.

(I hope this doesn't offend anyone, I just thought this could spark some interesting conversation)
09/09/2011
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Contributor: Tuesday Tuesday
There's a documentary about this. The whole story is very disturbing. In my opinion, the sentence cannot be too long or harsh. He was taking advantage of someone with a serious mental illness. No one in their right mind wants to be dismembered and eaten.
09/09/2011
Contributor: Ansley Ansley
The problem with saying that his conviction was either too short or that he shouldn't be convicted is that in the eyes of most nations in the free world assisting in the death of another human being is murder.

If his conviction were to be overturned on the grounds that the victim consented, it would open the door for any number of people to declare they were cannibals. "The victim submitted and therefore everything is a-ok." What burden of proof would be required for such a thing? Would that then lead to a rampant onslaught of people joining clubs to be eaten or to taste human flesh? (As a rational, forward and free-thinking human being I highly doubt that would be the case. But, you never know.)

It's a slippery slope and one that modern society feels no need to contend with and therefore it is better for society as a whole to keep cannibalism in a neat little jar labeled "Morally Wrong and Illegal".
09/09/2011
Contributor: Breas Breas
Quote:
Originally posted by Tuesday
There's a documentary about this. The whole story is very disturbing. In my opinion, the sentence cannot be too long or harsh. He was taking advantage of someone with a serious mental illness. No one in their right mind wants to be dismembered ... more
I've never seen the documentary, or film that was suggested in another thread. I just read about it yesterday. The wikipedia page doesn't really go in to detail about the victim. What mental illness did the victim have?
09/09/2011
Contributor: Breas Breas
Quote:
Originally posted by Ansley
The problem with saying that his conviction was either too short or that he shouldn't be convicted is that in the eyes of most nations in the free world assisting in the death of another human being is murder.

If his conviction were to be ... more
I absolutely agree! Just the thought of cannibalism is frightening to me. And while I do agree with what you said about it being murder to assist in the death of another human being, would you feel differently about doctor-assisted death (euthanasia) for suffering patients?
09/09/2011
Contributor: Tuesday Tuesday
Here's the documentary. I haven't watched it.

I say he had a mental illness because I can't imagine someone who isn't mentally ill wanting to be dismembered and murdered. That desire seems inconsistent with mental health. But I'm not a psychiatrist.
09/09/2011
Contributor: AngelvMaynard AngelvMaynard
Whoa!!! I've never heard of this, but you bet your butt I'm going to read about it now. Without even reading about it, my opinion would be this is never acceptable or excusable in any court in the world. So, so, so disturbing. But unbelievably interesting in that morbid voyeur kind of way..
09/09/2011
Contributor: P'Gell P'Gell
I've read about this case. It is in some ways similar, although somewhat different than those who help people commit suicide. US law makes it clear, it is against the law to help someone end their life. "Consent" has nothing to do with it.

Taking a life is against the law, and most would conclude that someone who wanted their life taken, in a violent fashion had serious psychiatric issues and thus could not actually give consent to being killed.

I think it's pretty clear.

Plus, if it wasn't a crime, how many murders would happen and the perpetrator would then simply say to the court, "It was consensual. She asked me to kill her and I have it on paper." That is not now, and never has been a legal way to take a life.
09/09/2011
Contributor: AngelvMaynard AngelvMaynard
Quote:
Originally posted by Tuesday
Here's the documentary. I haven't watched it.

I say he had a mental illness because I can't imagine someone who isn't mentally ill wanting to be dismembered and murdered. That desire seems inconsistent with mental health. But ... more
I agree! Mentally ill or suicidal. Either way gives me the creeps.
09/09/2011
Contributor: Lucidity Lucidity
The movie is called "Cannibal" (2006) and it's available on DVD, on Netflix. Though let me just say, while it is very well done, I do not really suggest watching it unless you are ready for a very, very disturbing exploitation film. If you've never seen an exploitation film, this is no way to ease into the genre.
Fangoria made an interpretation on this story as well (I didn't see it) called "Grimm Love" (2006), which I hear is much..easier take, more of a thriller.

My feelings on the case itself are complicated; while it is two consenting adults, cannibalism is illegal. I don't know what the laws in Germany are on assisted suicide, but the fact is that some of the things done were against the law and warrant at least some jail time. I don't think he should have gotten a crazy long sentence, but I do think he should have served time and gotten counseling.

Honestly, I've had very lengthy discussions about the case as it fascinated me for years, but that's basically how I feel, in short.
09/09/2011
Contributor: P'Gell P'Gell
Quote:
Originally posted by AngelvMaynard
I agree! Mentally ill or suicidal. Either way gives me the creeps.
People judged to be incompetent for their own care (either mentally ill or suicidal) cannot give legal consent It can be judged after by behavior, doctor testimony or family investigation even after someone's death.
09/09/2011
Contributor: Tuesday Tuesday
Quote:
Originally posted by P'Gell
I've read about this case. It is in some ways similar, although somewhat different than those who help people commit suicide. US law makes it clear, it is against the law to help someone end their life. "Consent" has nothing to do with ... more
Plus, when someone wants their life to end because they have a terminal illness and perhaps are in constant pain, the desire to have someone help them with that is understandable. Even the people who want to die as an end to constant pain want a humane end to their suffering.

Assisted suicide for the terminally ill isn't at all the same as this case.
09/09/2011
Contributor: Breas Breas
Quote:
Originally posted by Tuesday
Here's the documentary. I haven't watched it.

I say he had a mental illness because I can't imagine someone who isn't mentally ill wanting to be dismembered and murdered. That desire seems inconsistent with mental health. But ... more
Thanks for the link, I bookmarked it and going to watch it later today!
09/09/2011
Contributor: P'Gell P'Gell
Quote:
Originally posted by Tuesday
Plus, when someone wants their life to end because they have a terminal illness and perhaps are in constant pain, the desire to have someone help them with that is understandable. Even the people who want to die as an end to constant pain want a ... more
Exactly. I was going to include that in my post, but I didn't want to include too much stuff. I do agree that those suffering terribly should be able to end their lives, but as it is, few states allow even this, at least legally.

This case was totally different. I think if the court had done a postmortem psych evaluation they probably would have found the "victim" incapable of giving consent to the crime.
09/09/2011
Contributor: Breas Breas
Quote:
Originally posted by P'Gell
I've read about this case. It is in some ways similar, although somewhat different than those who help people commit suicide. US law makes it clear, it is against the law to help someone end their life. "Consent" has nothing to do with ... more
Well the thing with this case, is that they recorded it. I guess there was a two hour video of the two of them. The man who was the victim was not struggling. They cut off his penis, and the victim tried to eat his own penis but it was too "chewy" .
09/09/2011
Contributor: AngelvMaynard AngelvMaynard
I watched the documentary. That is honestly the creepiest, craziest story I've ever heard. I think they were both ill, and I don't believe that he will be able to resist on acting on the impulse again when he gets out. They did not mention when he was being released but he was sentenced in 2004 to 8 years, with a possible short release of 4. He is either out or getting close to being released. I am curious how he will be monitored once released. I am still shaking my head and a little goose bumped after watching it. The documentary is very well done, and all the reenactments are implied and not graphic for those that may want to watch it but are afraid it would be too graphic.
09/09/2011
Contributor: Starkiller87 Starkiller87
I really dont get offended by much unless its a real personal attempt at a dig.This is pretty weird, it is like you want to be like DUDE YOU CANT DO THAT. But the guy consented. I dunno, it is fucked up, Yeah but I just dont know.

Though speaking of weird documentaries has anyone else seen the one on Mr. Hands. The guy who got killed after having sex with a horse. That was another doc where I was like hrmmmm. Like they made a big party of beastiality. Human behavior just leaves me dumbfounded sometimes.
09/09/2011
Contributor: Tuesday Tuesday
Quote:
Originally posted by Breas
Well the thing with this case, is that they recorded it. I guess there was a two hour video of the two of them. The man who was the victim was not struggling. They cut off his penis, and the victim tried to eat his own penis but it was too "chewy" .
The fact that it was recorded and that the victim appeared to consent doesn't make it ok at all in my opinion. The poor victim was still taken advantage of.
09/09/2011
Contributor: Yaoi Pervette (deleted) Yaoi Pervette (deleted)
Quote:
Originally posted by P'Gell
I've read about this case. It is in some ways similar, although somewhat different than those who help people commit suicide. US law makes it clear, it is against the law to help someone end their life. "Consent" has nothing to do with ... more
I completely agree with this post. Also, I think society is better off without guys like Armin Meiwes walking the streets. For him to go to the trouble of placing an ad seeking a person to kill and eat, he obviously sees nothing wrong with that behavior. This makes him very dangerous. He should not be able to rationalize his crime by citing the victim's consent (which is seriously questionable).
09/09/2011
Contributor: Ansley Ansley
Quote:
Originally posted by Breas
I absolutely agree! Just the thought of cannibalism is frightening to me. And while I do agree with what you said about it being murder to assist in the death of another human being, would you feel differently about doctor-assisted death (euthanasia) ... more
I believe everyone has the right to choose how they want to die. I don't make the rules.
09/09/2011
Contributor: Rossie Rossie
Quote:
Originally posted by P'Gell
Exactly. I was going to include that in my post, but I didn't want to include too much stuff. I do agree that those suffering terribly should be able to end their lives, but as it is, few states allow even this, at least legally.

This ... more
Oregon is one of those states, I believe the Death with Dignity Act is a godsend to those who are terminally-ill and do not want to suffer forever.

The German case is totally different from normal medically-ill assisted suicides. That nutcase should be locked up in a mental facility after his jail release.
09/09/2011
Contributor: Sex'и'Violence Sex'и'Violence
It's a really weird case and the guy needs some serious counselling, but I don't think I would have even hit him with Manslaughter. If anything, assistant suicide and desecration of human remains- followed by having him committed to a mental institution.
09/09/2011
Contributor: Tuesday Tuesday
Quote:
Originally posted by Ansley
I believe everyone has the right to choose how they want to die. I don't make the rules.
The rules have been made for you in this case.
09/09/2011
Contributor: Ansley Ansley
Quote:
Originally posted by Tuesday
The rules have been made for you in this case.
I realize that and I stated as such; I just don't agree with laws concerning doctor-assisted suicide. If you want to run and jump off a cliff---so be it. If you want someone to administer a powerful concoction of drugs to end your life and you have a terminal illness, that should be your right.

If someone wants to organize a club where everyone who wants to be eaten alive or to eat people can join, so be it. Each person would have to go through years of rigorous psychological testing before picking who is doing what to whom, so be it.

My point is that society says that ending a life that is not your own is murder. Defining the how's, why's and when's is something very few people want to entertain under the notion that each and every life has a pre-ordained expiration date that no one should mess with. Like I said, I don't make the rules. If I did, people with terminal illnesses could end their lives at home, surrounded by family before they were too sick to be able to say goodbye.
09/09/2011
Contributor: js250 js250
Quote:
Originally posted by Breas
I absolutely agree! Just the thought of cannibalism is frightening to me. And while I do agree with what you said about it being murder to assist in the death of another human being, would you feel differently about doctor-assisted death (euthanasia) ... more
I personally feel that there is a moral and ethical line on assisting a healthy person vs. euthanasia of terminally ill people. Example: John Doe shoots stray dogs and cats that are healthy but homeless. He just shot 10 dogs in his yard - animal cruelty charges are pending, his reasoning, they are homeless. Jane Doe has three old dogs, 18 years old, all are sister from the same litter. Two of them are no longer able to walk or control body functions, one of them is just a bit slower than she used to be. Jane Doe has the vet euthanise the two that are terminally ill. Crime? No, keeping an animal in pain and suffering, possibility. I watched my father in law die a very cruel death of stomach cancer. He virtually starved to death and lost all quality of life, if I get terminal, I will euthanise myself vs. putting family through that, it was the cruelest situation I have ever witnessed. If he would have been a dog and was starved to death by his own disease it would have been considered cruelty to animals but because he was a person he had to suffer and starve for three months.
09/09/2011
Contributor: Kkay Kkay
As someone who has been suicidal, I firmly believe that if someone wants to die, you should get them help- not eat them.
09/09/2011
Contributor: GenderSexplorations GenderSexplorations
I think sending him to a mental institution may have been a better thing to do. Wanting to actually actively consume another human is decidedly not normal in our species. Much less in civilized society. Ritual cannibalism is creepy. But fetishistic cannibalism? That's a whole other level of weird. And the person who wanted to be eaten? Definitely needed mental help.
09/09/2011
Contributor: Errant Venture Errant Venture
For this, I make two comparisons. They don't really fit this exactly, but, then again, what does? The examples are suicide-by-cop: That is, an armed person taking hostages for whatever reason, committing acts that would mean that they'd most likely get a bullet through their brain. The officer who shoots the person would most likely not be convicted (though this itself doesn't exactly fit, since it involves endangering civilians). Yet, one who helps suicide by other means: providing the meds to do so, or a weapon. That person would be convicted, in most cases. For this, I'd lean towards thinking that the 8 year sentence is the right choice.
09/10/2011
Contributor: Breas Breas
Quote:
Originally posted by Lucidity
The movie is called "Cannibal" (2006) and it's available on DVD, on Netflix. Though let me just say, while it is very well done, I do not really suggest watching it unless you are ready for a very, very disturbing exploitation film. If ... more
I'm in Canada. We have Netflix here, but not the selection you have in the USA. I searched for that movie and it is not listed.. I watched the documentary last night that was posted in this thread and it said that cannibalism is not illegal (this happened in Germany)
09/10/2011
Contributor: Breas Breas
Quote:
Originally posted by AngelvMaynard
I watched the documentary. That is honestly the creepiest, craziest story I've ever heard. I think they were both ill, and I don't believe that he will be able to resist on acting on the impulse again when he gets out. They did not mention ... more
I watched the documentary last night too.. I also watched a recent interview with him. I guess he actually was re-tried and he was sentenced to life.. the link is here: link

so as for him getting out, it's a no-go!
09/10/2011