No one will ever be able to convince me that as long as the fetus is in the mother that she has no right to determine whether or not to terminate the pregnancy.

I'm not talking about throwing herself down the stairs, I'm talking legal and medically safe abortion.

I really can't say for sure, so I stay away from the concept of abortion. I consider it to be around the time of implantation to be on the safe side. I do know that there was a baby that was born, and survived, at 21 weeks. That's a about half way through pregnancy.

I just could never wrap my mind around the idea that it's just a thing inside the mother, but a baby once on the outside, even if they are the same gestational age. It makes no sense to me. Life can't possibly be based on location.

This comes with the idea that life is sacred. Is life truly sacred? As human beings, we want to think so and believe this with all we are. Believing life is sacred kind of gives us more of a purpose, doesn't it? The idea that life, and being alive is sacred is comforting for many people.

But it isn't. People kill. They fight wars. They kill if the other person doesn't agree with them. They kill for monetary gain. They kill because it's convenient. And some kill because they like it.

We are all human beings. And in striving for purpose, we have found in investment in sanctity of life. Yet, as human beings, we have found a way to twist such a moral idea to justify more horrible actions.

This is independent of my views on abortion. It's just an observation of human nature.

The thing that comes to mind when people refer to "human life" is "human consciousness," or sapience, which can not really be achieved in the womb.

I would consider a fetus to probably really start to have living value at about 24 weeks, taking into account both viability and neural development. What helped me form this opinion was data from the British government concerning the medical ethics of abortion which you can read here: (pdf). Section 2, from page 17 on is particularly relevant here.

Despite my opinions, however, I believe that the beginning of life and its value is such a subjective and philosophical argument that it should stay out of law, except that abortion should be legal, safe, and accessible.

I believe life starts are conception. However, that doesn't make me against abortion. I believe in the women's right to choose.

The notion that life begins at conception is so ridiculous.

Conception

At conception, two LIVING cells unite to form a new offspring. So, the whole "when does life begin" argument is a false, or artificial, argument. From that moment of conception, it has its own unique, individual DNA identity...a human DNA identity. It will not grow into anything but a human.

The real debate is when does that life deserve the same legal protection as a born individual.

And, no, I am not a hardcore "pro-lifer."

I'm completely pro-choice and I think that a fetus could be considered alive once it passes the threshold of viability. If it can not survive outside of the womb, it can't be considered "alive"

oooh slippery topic. i vote 'at conception'

I can't honestly day, but the idea of a fertilized egg = a child, as rational for outlawing abortion, doesn't work for me at all. To me there is a huge difference between a cell and a mother pregnant at 36 weeks, plus I don't have a uterus so I figure I should leave much of that distinction to those who have them.

I refuse to argue about abortion, but I do believe that if one wasn't born with the equipment to carry a fetus, one has little say in what those of us who DO have that equipment get to do with it.

Medically speaking "Pregnancy" doesn't occur until implantation. So, medically "conception" (the meeting and joining of sperm and egg) is simply NOT a "pregnancy." You are not "pregnant" until the fertilized egg is implanted into the uterine wall. That usually takes between 6 to 14 days after the infusion of semen into the uterus. So, there is a time where there is a fertilized egg, but it isn't implanted. So, no pregnancy. In fact, many times eggs will be fertilized and simply not implant. THAT isn't called a miscarriage (miscarriage only occurs if a PREGNANCY occurs, which requires implantation.)

Also, Fertility Clinics have THOUSANDS of fertilized eggs, sitting in Freezer tanks. Are those tanks "pregnant?" (Why not? "Conception" has taken place. Something must be "pregnant?" shouldn't it be?

Are you aware that a good 80% of those fertilized eggs (conceptions) will NOT become a fetus and will be "wasted" usually intentionally? Most will either be injected into a uterus and NOT become implanted, or be allowed to defrost, if the donors of the egg and sperm decide not to use them or are done having children. Is defrosting these eggs, which is done EVERY DAY an "abortion?" Not medically speaking, it isn't.

Also, I hope that most who call themselves "Pro-Life" know that virtually all hospitals, even "Christian" hospitals, CANNOT attempt to save a fetus born before viability. That is usually any fetus less than 23 weeks of gestation, OR older, if unhealthy. This is done every day in hospitals. Yes, we've all heard of those babies who were 21 weeks of gestation and "saved" (usually at a Catholic hospital, most of which are trying to push the age of viability further and further back.)

I was witness to the arrival and subsequent survival of one such "21 week fetus". He lived... he also racked up over 2 million dollars in NICU bills (this was when insurance agencies were allowed to put "Caps" on policies, and he "Maxed out" his insurance before he hit his due date.) As he was born breathing and fighting, an exception as made and he was brought to the NICU, most others born at 21 weeks are kept comfortable and usually expire in a few hours, if they are not born already dead. He also has myriad intellectual and physical issues.... and it's been discovered that he was most likely more like 24 weeks of gestation, not 21, as the hospital (which I worked for at the time) reported at the time of his birth.

The crux of this is that he WASN'T a 21 week fetus (I learned this recently from a physician friend of mine, who, along with others who work for this hospital, did some research into the case) but the hospital is still claiming they "saved" a 21 week baby, when the truth is most likely that the mother didn't know when she became pregnant and he was MUCH older and already past the date of viability.

Just saying. From what I've seen and learned (and I've worked in Maternal Infant care for many years) is that 22 or 23 weeks is about the dividing line between "viable" and not viable.... and that isn't about to change any time soon. The last significant effort in micro preterm birth strategy was the advent of artificial lung surfactant, which has improved micro preterm babies survival rate greatly. But, surfactant has been around for about 20 years, and we haven't had many advanced of note since then.

There is NO "artificial womb" nor is one in research or production. Just a plain old Isolette, used for the past 60 years or so. Yes, it's been improved, but there's nothing to say that any fetus born before 23 weeks has any chance of survival (and that's pushing it, as even here the survival rate is less than 40% and the permanent damage to the infant rate is nearly 100%)

So NO "artificial wombs" on the horizon, and the date of viability is NOT going to change, most likely in our lifetime, if ever.

Let me try this, from the above mentioned Moore and Pursuad study into fetal viability.

I believe life begins at conception, but I am pro-choice. It's anyone's choice whether or not to have an abortion. If I ever got pregnant and didn't want to keep the baby, I'd rather give it up for adoption than get an abortion, but that's simply my choice. Everyone else should be free to do what they choose.

Once it is capable of survival outside the mother

Once it develops a nervous system. We do not care about killing plants because they cannot feel their death. I think the same holds true for a fetus. Once it has a developed nervous system then it is a person.