Do you use the word "bitch"?

Contributor: Alan & Michele Alan & Michele
We both use it and aren't offended at all by it.
I use it more than Alan or our room mate, especially in the context of "You're acting like a little bitch right now." or "Now you have something new to bitch about." Alan tends to use it more like "What's he bitching about?" or "She's bitched off again."
We don't generally use it in a direct derogatory towards anyone though, because it just doesn't pack any punch for us. Cunt and Inbred Bastard are far more derogatory if we are angry and want to offend someone.
07/21/2010
Contributor: El-Jaro El-Jaro
And don't forget about Meredith Brook's "Bitch" song
07/21/2010
Contributor: joja joja
Bitch is a slur, just like n*gger and f*ggot. Some are directed at non-whites, some at women, some at queer or disabled folks or any other oppressed group.

"It's just a joke" and "I'm reclaiming it" are not excuses. Nor are, "but women/black people say it, too!" If you use it casually, you are making the climate more acceptable who do mean it. It's called casual racism/sexism/etc.

Now, before people get all up in arms, I'm not advocating censorship or making certain words illegal. I just think that anyone who cares about the people around them should make the decision to not used privileged language. I am still working on not using "gay" and "retarded" as synonyms for bad.
07/21/2010
Contributor: happeegrl03 happeegrl03
I use the word mostly to be a smart ass with my friends. As far as someone calling me one? I don't really care what anyone calls me UNLESS they are using it in a derogatory manner. For instance, if someone were to call me a F'ing lesbian, i would take it in one of two ways. If a friend calls me that i will take it as a joke and laugh and say " why yes i am, thanks for noticing!" If someone is saying that to me in a derogatory way, watch out because here come my claws! lol
07/21/2010
Contributor: joja joja
Quote:
Originally posted by P'Gell
For a while, actually too long, I was brainwashed by 2nd wave feminism theory, and was "offended" by the word "Bitch." Of course, in that form of mind EVERYTHING offended me! I was beginning to think that my sexual fantasies ... more
If your feminist beliefs got in the way of BDSM play, then you failed to understand canon feminist theory. Same goes with being at odds with men. The work we do also helps men, not to mention the many male feminists working with us.

Feminism is about choice. The second wave made the mistake of focusing on women who chose to work, and we've moved on since it ended (late seventies/early eighties). We also fight for many rights for mothers and housewives - such as the right to no-fault divorce, medical care for your children, the right to choose where and how to give birth (refusing cesarean, etc.), and benefits and employment opportunities for divorced housewives.

Only from an extremely privileged vantage point can you assume most women can just choose whether to work or stay home. The vast majority of the population can't feed their family on a single income. We fought (and still fight) for equal access to jobs and education, equal pay, childcare options, maternity/paternity leave, and respect and safety at the workplace.

Also, reclaiming words is a poor strategy because instead of just normalizing the word, it normalizes misogyny as well.
07/21/2010
Contributor: Blinker Blinker
Quote:
Originally posted by kck
Thanks, Blinker!

And as for hating feminism, I think the theories do have something good to offer. There are LOTS of different types of feminism (i.e. - Marxist, Third World Women, lesbian, political, etc.). But I do think that some of it ... more
There is this book called Female Chauvinist Pigs by Ariel Levy that I adore. It really scared me from feminism. She talks to women who think that being in Girls Gone Wild makes them feminists, and the fact that Playboy's merchandising money comes mostly from girls (bellybutton rings and shirts and stuff...I'm guilty of this because I have Playtoy booty shorts hehe)...You should check it out!
07/21/2010
Contributor: kck kck
Quote:
Originally posted by joja
If your feminist beliefs got in the way of BDSM play, then you failed to understand canon feminist theory. Same goes with being at odds with men. The work we do also helps men, not to mention the many male feminists working with us.

Feminism ... more
I tend to agree with you here, especially about feminist work helping men just as much as it helps women.

However, there is much discourse (and disagreement) within each of the Waves and each of the "categories," so while I don't 100% agree with P'Gell, I can definitely understand and appreciate her experiences (and disenchantment) with feminism.
07/21/2010
Contributor: Carrie Ann Carrie Ann
Quote:
Originally posted by P'Gell
Oh, thank you. How would I do this? I like to write and have done so for other communities, magazines, journals etc.

How would I submit an article for the Cafe? (After my Certification Boards on Monday, though! )
Full guidelines. Looking forward to seeing it!
07/21/2010
Contributor: P'Gell P'Gell
Quote:
Originally posted by joja
If your feminist beliefs got in the way of BDSM play, then you failed to understand canon feminist theory. Same goes with being at odds with men. The work we do also helps men, not to mention the many male feminists working with us.

Feminism ... more
I understand what you are saying Prax. I agree with a lot of feminist theory, just that Motherhood has been forgotten, a woman's choice to raise her own children was disparaged ("if you were a real women, you wouldn't waste your education and your time on children" I'm not making that up. People have SAID IT to me.) and breastfeeding and Attachment Parenting is all but ignored by Second Wave Feminism.

I considered myself a feminist for a LONG time, was a charter member of MS when they regrouped as a non commercial magazine, did papers for it in college, sat in encounter groups, I just have been THROUGH it, and I feel I am Post Feminist at this point.

Yes, women have been gained many things that were denied them, but we also lost something in the bargain, we were told, "Go out and 'get a job' (meaning career) and the Men will help around the house, raise the kids, and you'll have more money, and you will have EVERYTHING you want. You can have it all." NOTHING is farther from the truth.

Now we work as many hours outside the house as men, still have the main child care role, come home from work with a FULL LOAD of childcare and housework, and it has been proven that most men do no more than they did in 50 years ago. I mean in terms of child care and housework. I AM NOT disrespecting the men at all, my Dad and many other men changed diapers, did the laundry and the cooking and the ironing etc, even back in the 60s and before, but we DIDN'T GET what we were promised. We just have kids who are raised by strangers or we are insulted for "wasting" our education and taking advantage of our men if we DO make the sacrifice to stay home. I've done both (worked with small kids and stayed home) and 2nd Wave did NOTHING for women who CHOOSE and sacrificed to raise their own kids, or even have a "traditional" relationship with our men.

I am aware that some women have no choice but to "work" but 2nd Wave seemed to promise us all "Rewarding careers" when most of us are just doing "jobs" to make ends meet. THAT wasn't what was being talked about at the sit ins and the meetings in the 70s (I know, because I was THERE!) We were bamboozled and although I admit that the right to vote and the ability to have a career (if you have the MONEY for a decent education) was gained, most middle class, lower middle class and even poor women were simply pushed into the work force, against their will. We didn't get "everything" promised us, the price of things just went UP to make up for families making two incomes and we ended up with little or no advantages at all, and many of our kids ended up worse off.

Most women now have TWO lives and are enjoying neither of them. Most women now have "jobs" not rewarding "careers" (like we were promised, if we'd only either not have kids or just leaven them with someone and "work" as if we weren't already doing that!) A "job" isn't a career and only the already wealthy and maybe some of the working poor really benefited from 2nd wave. (and although that's good, most of us don't belong to either class. And not that long ago, many of the poor could stay home with their kids, but welfare reform, sparked by second wave theory, also sparked the "why can't they just get jobs?" debate and Public Aid was denied many women who previously WERE taking care of their own children.)

Prax, I like your post a lot. You and I usually agree on things, in fact 10-15 years ago, I was saying EXACTLY what you were saying. I could have written that post myself, when I was in my early 20s. But, I've since learned that we got little from the bargain, except the economy crumbling and our kids being left with others and working as hard as a man in the workplace and THEN coming home to a filthy house, the laundry, our kids missing us and learning things WE didn't teach them and CONSTANT exhaustion.

I used to say the SAME EXACT THINGS about "reclaiming words" (I didn't believe in it) and NOW I realized there IS a power to it. I no longer see misogyny behind every bush, (although it certainly exists in a lot of places) and I think we are thinking along the same lines, but I am about 15 to 20 years past where you are now. That isn't bad, for either of us it's just evolution of thought and life. I couldn't have got to where I am now, if I hadn't gone through it.

20 years ago, I would have disagreed with the posts I have made on this thread. Really.

But, I've moved beyond it (and that doesn't mean that I didn't grow when I was more of a "Feminist") and yes, I DO strongly believe in reclaiming a LOT of things that were once seen as insults, putdowns or seen as not worth our time (like, say, raising our own kids and taking care of our man/partner.)

As I said, your mileage may vary. Mine did, not that long ago.
07/21/2010
Contributor: P'Gell P'Gell
Prax I saw one thing I still needed to comment on (I hope it is seen in the freindly manner it is intended )

You said: "If your feminist beliefs got in the way of BDSM play, then you failed to understand canon feminist theory. Same goes with being at odds with men. The work we do also helps men, not to mention the many male feminists working with us." I don't think I misunderstood anything, as when I learned "Feminism" all there was was 1st wave and 2nd wave and from the meetings and encounter groups and magazines and underground 'zines where I learned MY canon, porn was ALWAYS against women, men were often seen as the enemy (unless they were "male feminist" and in 20 years I didn't see one that fit the mold we were instructed to look for) Motherhood was seen as a waste of time, and yes, they made mistakes. But, I came of age in that Age, and that is what I learned, and I still feel the way I do, based much on the mistakes made by everything from "The Female Eunuch" to the idea that "housewives are unfulfilled, valium addicted nuts who live for their children and nothing else and need to be PUSHED into the workforce." Sex and men, taken as they ARE, (meaning realizing they don't think, act or behave like women and appreciating that difference) were all but forgotten in Second Wave and for that, (and the Motherhood thing) I can't reconcile it.

Yes, many women have NO CHOICE but to work. But, isn't Second Wave (despite it claims of "choice of lifestyle and careers) to blame for that?

Believe me, Post Feminism is not always a comfortable place to be. But, I can't see any other way for me to live at this point in my life.

As always, I respect others views, I certainly don't usually call women "Bitch" in a mean way, (it's usually part of my sick sense of humor) and of course your mileage has the right to vary.

We are not static beings, we are changing and dynamic, and sometimes taking "what works" from what we learned at one point and rejecting a lot of the rest of it is what propels us forward and keeps us fresh.

I RESPECT your viewpoint and totally understand it.

Peace, sister.
07/21/2010
Contributor: P'Gell P'Gell
Quote:
Originally posted by Carrie Ann
Full guidelines. Looking forward to seeing it!
Thanks, Carrie Ann. After I sit for my Boards, I'll look into it. I am learning even as I read more on this thread.
07/21/2010
Contributor: Sammi Sammi
I say it quite a bit. It doesn't really bother me to say it or to hear it.
07/21/2010
Contributor: joja joja
Quote:
Originally posted by P'Gell
Prax I saw one thing I still needed to comment on (I hope it is seen in the freindly manner it is intended )

You said: "If your feminist beliefs got in the way of BDSM play, then you failed to understand canon feminist theory. Same goes ... more
I respect your views as well - and I do understand that language is always evolving and that the meaning of words changes over time. I suppose this just comes down to individual definitions of feminism. Thanks for responding
07/22/2010
Contributor: removedacnt removedacnt
I don't call anyone a bitch. But I do say SOB when I'm mad sometimes. Or say someone is bitching about something.
07/22/2010
Contributor: P'Gell P'Gell
Quote:
Originally posted by joja
I respect your views as well - and I do understand that language is always evolving and that the meaning of words changes over time. I suppose this just comes down to individual definitions of feminism. Thanks for responding
Cool. HUGS! Thank you for your view, too. I'm still learning, a lot! One thing I really like about this community, Prax, is that is seems like there is a LOT of respect between contributors.
07/22/2010
Contributor: clp clp
Quote:
Originally posted by joja
Bitch is a slur, just like n*gger and f*ggot. Some are directed at non-whites, some at women, some at queer or disabled folks or any other oppressed group.

"It's just a joke" and "I'm reclaiming it" are not excuses. ... more
I am very much in Prax' camp. I (as am I'm sure many here) have been called many a colorful name because of my skin, or my sex; my education, my sexual orientation, or my... you know, I've heard it all. Just because I know how to deal with those words doesn't make it alright for them to have been said in the first place. Most of the time it isn't my dismay at the word itself, but the ignorance/hate that it came from. Smiling or laughing doesn't take those past experiences away.

I don't know where 'bitch' falls on the Great Scale of Profanity. I do use it, however rarely, but in the same way I apply caution to any type of name-calling: at the action and not the person (i.e., she ACTS like a bitch; she isn't one).

I try not to get too comfortable with any words that I'd have a problem saying to a stranger, or family member, or friend. It isn't a matter of censorship for me, either; only respect for those present and for myself at not having to rely on them.
07/22/2010
Contributor: Maiden Maiden
Quote:
Originally posted by bzzingbee
I am totally comfortable with the word 'bitch', I probably use it more than I should, lol.
Same here.
07/22/2010
Contributor: kck kck
Quote:
Originally posted by clp
I am very much in Prax' camp. I (as am I'm sure many here) have been called many a colorful name because of my skin, or my sex; my education, my sexual orientation, or my... you know, I've heard it all. Just because I know how to deal ... more
Well said!
07/22/2010
Contributor: Owl Identified Owl Identified
Here's my opinion. I don't mind the word, personally. If you try to use it as a slur against me, I'm likely not going to be offended, try as you might to do so. I've definitely reclaimed the word. BUT, I generally do not use the word casually toward women that I don't know because I respect that many women do not like this word because it has been used to belittle, dehumanize and injure them so many times in their life. So to my friends, I might be like "Oh my god, you wonderful bitch, you paid for my lunch? Thank you!" To someone I wasn't so close to I wouldn't do so.
07/22/2010
Contributor: Laura Laura
Quote:
Originally posted by gone77
YES!

I swear like a sailor and use bitch all the bloody time in reference to just about everything. It's usually either playful or derogatory. If I'm using bitch (or any other word) in a degrading or derogatory way, there will be no ... more
Totally in agreement on this one with Gary and Kristi. I almost always use bitch in conversation in a negative way, though, like "what a bitch," or "bitchass," "punkass bitch"... They aren't compliments, but I would say it in conversation to a friend, not just meeting someone or in public (unless someone was being a REAL bitch.) but if it's a joke, then yeah, you're probably my bitch right there.
Swearing is one of my native languages, but I've had to adjust to, yaknow, having children and regular non-sailor types around. Kids and grannies alike make fun of my swear word replacements, like "sugar!" and "jiminy crickets!" or "Cripe!"
I think my G rated replacement for "asshole" and "bitch" is "turd," a far more foul word anyhow. It wrinkles kids noses, and adults too.
07/22/2010
Contributor: Owl Identified Owl Identified
Quote:
Originally posted by joja
Bitch is a slur, just like n*gger and f*ggot. Some are directed at non-whites, some at women, some at queer or disabled folks or any other oppressed group.

"It's just a joke" and "I'm reclaiming it" are not excuses. ... more
I think this line of reasoning is very misguided.

I don't think it's productive or appropriate for anyone to tell someone that has been marginalized by a slur that they are somehow contributing to an oppressive culture by reclaiming it. Marginalized groups have very few tools at their disposal to combat oppression and marginalization, and reclamation of slurs is one of the most powerful tools we have. For example, I would hope no one -of any ethnicity, although especially someone that hasn't been on the receiving end of that slur- would be foolish enough to tell a black person that they didn't have the right to do everything in their power to render a term as violent and painful as the 'n' word benign and innocuous (or at least less violent and painful.) Similarly, I think it's very foolish to try to tell a woman that she cannot reclaim power and agency by taking a weapon of oppression away from her oppressor, that she is somehow wrong for doing so. Sounds like a lot of victim-blaming to me. Furthermore, a straight person suggesting I can't take back a term like "dyke", or a queer man can't take back "faggot"? Talk about privilege.

At the same time, do I think that a woman that is reclaiming the term "bitch" shouldn't use it toward someone that has not expressed that they are okay with it. It's one thing to use it regarding yourself or friends that you know are comfortable with it, and quite another to use it without consent toward another person.
07/22/2010
Contributor: Owl Identified Owl Identified
Quote:
Originally posted by P'Gell
I understand what you are saying Prax. I agree with a lot of feminist theory, just that Motherhood has been forgotten, a woman's choice to raise her own children was disparaged ("if you were a real women, you wouldn't waste your ... more
Also, P'Gell, I'm a feminist and I agree with many things you are saying. Don't let some misguided individuals that, for example, disparage motherhood make you feel that feminism is not something that belongs to you. The meaning of feminism varies greatly from individual to individual, and for this individual right here? My feminism believes that motherhood is one of the most important jobs in the whole world. HELLO! We wouldn't be here without mothers! Also, this:

"But, I've since learned that we got little from the bargain, except the economy crumbling and our kids being left with others and working as hard as a man in the workplace and THEN coming home to a filthy house, the laundry, our kids missing us and learning things WE didn't teach them and CONSTANT exhaustion."

This is true for so many women, and it shows how much work is left to do. Many women need to work in this economy to keep their families afloat, and now they have the option to do so. But what has really changed when women are expected not only to bring home the bacon but the raise children, clean the house, prepare meals and all the other work included in the job of homemaker/mother? You are hitting on so many points that third wave feminists (I consider myself one) see as huge problems. lol, don't give up on us, I swear that many of us are fighting the same fight as you.
07/22/2010
Contributor: Owl Identified Owl Identified
And also, P'Gell, there are manymanymany feminists that think policing your sexual fantasies and trying to make them egalitarian when what you REALLY want is hot, dirty D/s stuff? Is the OPPOSITE of feminism. Again, I am a feminist, and I think women making choices about their sexuality, living their fantasies (no matter WHAT they are, as long as they are consensual) and fucking ENJOYING sex are fucking critical to the empowerment of women!
07/22/2010
Contributor: Airen Wolf Airen Wolf
Quote:
Originally posted by Carrie Ann
You should totally turn these thoughts into a blog post for Eden Cafe!
Yup....would be most interesting to see the thought cotinued!
07/22/2010
Contributor: Airen Wolf Airen Wolf
Quote:
Originally posted by Chilipepper
I distinctly recall the first time I was ever called a bitch - by my mother when I was thirteen and had my first PMS (which should have indicated that my cycles were not normal to begin with if I displayed all the classic symptoms of it just before ... more
OH like me you get a bit pissed when someone has the original comeback of "Shut up you fat assed bitch" cause that's SUCH a smart insult....>.<

Course then again 'bitch' to me is like 'dude' to most of my generation! I use it all the time...noun, verb, adverb, action phrase...this five letter word has it all.
07/22/2010
Contributor: P'Gell P'Gell
Quote:
Originally posted by Owl Identified
And also, P'Gell, there are manymanymany feminists that think policing your sexual fantasies and trying to make them egalitarian when what you REALLY want is hot, dirty D/s stuff? Is the OPPOSITE of feminism. Again, I am a feminist, and I think ... more
Oh, yes, that is what I have done. The "egalitarian fantasy" thing just didn't work out for me. I wanna be a Bottom! That's what works for us, but didn't in the 1st and 2nd waves where I learned my canon (perhaps I took it too seriously or by the book. The whole "everything offended me at that point" was not an exaggeration. I have SO chilled out since then. BUT, I needed the education and have learned and grown with and since it.)


I also (per you post above) have NOT given up on Feminism completely, which is why I use the term "Post Feminist." I've learned and gained a hell of a lot from some parts of feminism, and also found things that I needed to reject. So, just like my upbringing, my college education, my life experiences, I have taken what works and left the rest.

I think you understand what I said about reclaiming words and empowerment. Don't worry, I haven't given up, I just need to make my own way, in my own Post Feminist Time.

This is a really fucking good discussion, I have to say that!!!!
07/23/2010
Contributor: beautifulpierced beautifulpierced
me and my friends always use the word bitch. i think that bitch is better than some words out there that people feel free to use. Bitch for me means i can stand my ground whether people like it or not
07/23/2010
Contributor: usmcwife99 usmcwife99
The last time I used the word was when I was "taking care of bussniess", needless to say. I feel comfortable saying the word, I just dont use it.

I really dont have a need to use it.
07/26/2010
Contributor: Gunsmoke Gunsmoke
Quote:
Originally posted by P'Gell
Oh, yes, that is what I have done. The "egalitarian fantasy" thing just didn't work out for me. I wanna be a Bottom! That's what works for us, but didn't in the 1st and 2nd waves where I learned my canon (perhaps I took it too ... more
I'm so glad my wife never bought into the Feminist agenda. We do what we want without checking in with the PC police. My precious daughter is off to college and appears to be too strong and independent to fall for the latest version of Feminism - which isn't much more enlightened than in the 80's or 90's.

I'm sure I offended many feminists - well that's how it goes.
07/26/2010
Contributor: kck kck
Quote:
Originally posted by El-Jaro
And don't forget about Meredith Brook's "Bitch" song
Good point. Also, Pearl's colorful use of the word in the Land Lady skit. Classy.
07/26/2010