Real. True. Wannabe. Insults? Or not?

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Carrie Ann

Relating to: The Slavette Diaries: The Slave Manifesto

In her column this week, Slavette mentions outlawing the use of the terms "real", "true" and "wannabe" in describing a person or practice associated with BDSM as they tend to be derogatory and demeaning sentiments tossed around to hurt others or make oneself feel better.

I know we have some BDSM folks on the forum so I guess I"m wondering how y'all feel about those terms. Even non BDSM types have probably seen the terms used in the same way regarding other things. What do you think...?

Answers (public voting - your screen name will appear in the results):

You're a creep. Stop asking me this stuff.

Emma (Girl With Fire)

I don't see a problem with the words. Some folks ARE wannabes. Some folks AREN'T real or truly into WIITWD.

Adriana Ravenlust , Angel deSanguine , Owl Identified , Lynk , Kayla , Domineight , Sera , DeliciousSurprise , NightNight , Throwingawaysoon , Destri , Lio , MrGoodTool , MamaDivine , sextoygeek

What does WIITWD mean?

Lynk , Sera , Pleasure Piratess , Selective Sensualist , Darling Jen , NightNight , nolongerhere , Lady Venus , isisandshiva , potstickers , Jessica Elizabeth , Taylor , KnK , BluePixi , Woman China , wetone123 , Nazaress , bayosgirl , BakaG , MamaDivine , ViVix , SoloJoe , sextoygeek

Are you talking about a video game?

Lynk , Nazaress

I totally agree. Use of these terms is a sure fire way to ruin our community.

~*SurrealisticFantasy*~ , Adriana Ravenlust , User Unknown , Pumpkin Lady , Airen Wolf , MuffysPinguLove , J's Alley , Sera , Persephone Nightmare , NightNight , Dusk , pinkcupcakes

Um. What community?

Adriana Ravenlust , J's Alley , Owl Identified , Domineight , Sera , BakaG , MamaDivine

It's not the words it's the judgement behind them that's bad.

~*SurrealisticFantasy*~ , Adriana Ravenlust , User Unknown , Airen Wolf , Luscious Lily , MuffysPinguLove , Sir , Domineight , Britni TheVadgeWig , Kinky Skier , Sera , clp , Persephone Nightmare , DeliciousSurprise , Trashley , Pleasure Piratess , NightNight , LittleBoPeep , null , Madeira , mllebeauty , isisandshiva , butterflygirlxo , potstickers , darthkitt3n , Dusk , toxie m , Jessica Elizabeth , RemusHalifax , KnK , dv8 , Shellz31 , A Closet Slut (aka nipplepeople) , pinkcupcakes , Lio , Apirka , x203 , samanthalynn , SexyStuff , MissCandyland , Caus , Entropy , unfulfilled , BakaG , wwwww , sodapin

Oh, knock it off. We all judge. Stop judging me for judging you.

Carrie Ann , ~*SurrealisticFantasy*~ , Victoria , Adriana Ravenlust , Pumpkin Lady , imp , Airen Wolf , MuffysPinguLove , J's Alley , Owl Identified , Lynk , DeliciousSurprise , Trashley , Fanny , Selective Sensualist , Hannah Savage , NightNight , Lady Venus , potstickers , P'Gell , Taylor , KnK , A Closet Slut (aka nipplepeople) , Woman China , Lio , blacklodge , MrGoodTool , Entropy , mpfm , MamaDivine , Dixiemomma

Total votes: 137 (79 voters)

Poll is closed

06/15/2009

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~*SurrealisticFantasy*~

So my votes probably seem odd at first, but I think this topic has a few flavors to it, so I'll explain.

I think that labelling people as whole, is generally a "wrong" thing to do. That's definitely not to say that we don't all do it in some way or another - because we do, it's simply become human nature to categorize things. However, by doing this we obviously are making assumptions about others that cause us to be inable to get to know the "real" them. The problem with these terms is that they are based solely upon the intentions and personal thoughts of another individual, and the only one who can accurately assess these things is the person to whom these intentions belong.

And while there simply ARE these different types of people in the world, to me it's not fair ot label someone a "wannabe" because if they want to be something that means that the intention is there and the desire is there, all that really could be lacking is either the "proper" implementation of the practice or the person may be desiring to be a certain way not because they really want that but because they think it makes them a more appealling person to others. In which case, they obviously have some deep rooted self-esteem problems since they are not comfortable proclaiming what it is that really makes them "them". I think that labelling these people for this sort of self-esteem handicap is only hurtful and doesn't help anyone. It's really the last thing people like that need.

So, while it IS wrong to label people, it's not so much the words but the intent behind them, and quite frankly, we all label people to a certain degree, so I feel that it's "wrong" but also sort of "normal", if you will.

06/15/2009

Victoria

Where are the "Meh, whatever" and "Oh, Princess Carrie Ann, you're the slaviest slave" options? Dag, I feel ripped off.

06/15/2009

Carrie Ann

Quote:

Originally posted by Victoria

Where are the "Meh, whatever" and "Oh, Princess Carrie Ann, you're the slaviest slave" options? Dag, I feel ripped off.

*snort!*

We need an edit feature on the polls!

06/15/2009

Victoria

Quote:

Originally posted by Carrie Ann

*snort!*

We need an edit feature on the polls!

Bah! You need more coffee

06/15/2009

Adriana Ravenlust

Quote:

Originally posted by Victoria

Bah! You need more coffee

Way to take the focus off the real problem (Kidding) d= You should be a politician!

06/15/2009

Carrie Ann

Quote:

Originally posted by Adriana Ravenlust

Way to take the focus off the real problem (Kidding) d= You should be a politician!

Heh. I was a board member once.

I sucked at it!

06/15/2009

Adriana Ravenlust

My votes seem all over the place so I thought I'd try to sum up my thoughts.

I think it is sometimes appropriate to use the words "real" or "true". Maybe even necessary. The distinction is important when comparing those who are practicing BDSM in healthy way as opposed to those who simply use BDSM as a guise because they're really abusive or worse.

But I know it's also used by people who simply want to make themselves feel/seem better or who refuse to acknowledge that other ways of practicing BDSM. Use in this manner, these words only serve to hurt the community. In this, I agree with Surrealistic Fantasy. And also that it's the judgment which is hurtful rather than the words themselves. OF course, I do think it's human nature to judge and I happen to like many, many labels. I just think we should try to stick to the most helpful ones.

Ooooooooon the other hand, sometimes you have to wonder how much of a community there really is. Sometimes it's more like "lack of attachment to the mainstream" than a community.

06/15/2009

User Unknown

I agree, it's human nature to categorize, I think because by labeling everything else, we can more efficiently decide where we belong in the scheme of things. (even if everyone develops a different overall opinion based scheme) When people run into a hitch with their (concious or unconcious) categorizing, things go wonky, you get bad attitudes and sour grapes and that can mess with the well-being of any community/group.

06/15/2009

Pumpkin Lady

I chose both:
I totally agree. Use of these terms is a sure fire way to ruin our community.
and
Oh, knock it off. We all judge. Stop judging me for judging you.

Strange, yes. But what about that thing they tell kids, "if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all". Hell, no one thinks nice things all the time, it's just someone's choice to say it or not. If the reason for saying it is to make someone feel small or ostracized, I think it's pretty cheap and immature thing to do.

In this specific reference for example, maybe someone from the deep south (okay yes, that's a judgment, but for my point we will ignore this) thinks she's super BDSM cause she wears fuzzy handcuffs, but she's talking to a dom from NYC. NYC doesn't need to point out the fact that she's "real" BDSM, because she just knows it. Southern girl can be happy in her shoes cause she's probably never going to experience it like NYC.

Did that make sense? Anyway, I think this community does really well with people who aren't necessarily in the know right off the bat. Even if some questions or comments are totally ridiculous at points, people have done well with making people feel welcome.

06/15/2009

imp

I'm fine with it but I will and do say something when someone decides I am not "true" or "real" enough for their liking. Meh it's silly all this boxing. What happened to being an individual and exploring your own path your way? Although I really would like to see a Yurpeen Hoose someday. *grin*

06/16/2009

Angel deSanguine

Quote:

Originally posted by Adriana Ravenlust

I was going to elaborate, but Adriana, I think you just about nailed it!

06/25/2009

Airen Wolf

(EF Review Program Mentor)

As my one of my MMORPG friends would say, "Stop judging me with your silence..."

02/06/2010

Luscious Lily

Quote:

Originally posted by Airen Wolf

As my one of my MMORPG friends would say, "Stop judging me with your silence..."

And responses like this are why Airen is made of win. ^_^ Couldn't have said it better myself.

02/06/2010

J's Alley

Ok, so my reasoning? Well with BDSM there are, not levels, but different levels...ya' know? I watched a good friend of mine leave a local group because he was told he wasn't "really into it." Umm, he was dabbling in the community a bit, but I assure you he was a heavy player...he made me nervous.

There are so many aspects to BDSM that I think some people forget it sometimes. For instance I don't play with others, just J. It's a rule. No biggie to me really, but some people look at me like I am freaking nuts. I also have a friend who is *really* into BDSM, but she just says she's a little kinky and not at all into BDSM.

I know we all judge, we're human and it's what we do. I do it all the time and I yell at myself for it, but you can't help it. How many times have we seen that girl walking down the street and wonder if she owns a mirror (oh is that just me...oops, never mind then). I just let labels roll off. It's like the time old question of who's a *real* slave, well hell we all perceive it differently.

Oh...and Carrie Ann is the bestest slave in the whole wide world

02/07/2010

Owl Identified

"Community" = teh lolz. I've never been to this community of which you speak. Is it gated?

Also, I don't really make it a point to go around pointing out who is "true" because, frankly, I have better things to do than talk about how other people have sex. For example, I could actually be HAVING sex instead. But I have definitely made plenty of quiet judgments about other people and their motivations for their kink. But then again, I also quietly make assumptions/judgments/ etc. about a lot of things. The trick is I don't assume that anyone gives a shit what I think about the way they have sex, in the very same way that I don't assume anyone gives a shit what I think of their shoes or the way they raise their kids, etc.

I don't think the terms themselves are really the problem. People that believe it's their job cleanse "the community" of "wannabes" are the problem. Like, just STFU and go have all this kinky sex you've been talking about. Eesh. I mean, it says on your FL profile you've been a "valued and esteemed" "leader" in the "scene" since the Paleozoic Era. Why don't you go teach a workshop on how to be a True Slave™ or something!

02/08/2010

Lynk

I'm not part of the BDSM community. I had to look up WIITWD, and wikipedia explained that it stands for "What it is that we do".

So, my answer is on a general level, not with any experience or in regards to the BDSM community.

First off, we all judge. End of story. We are human. It happens. It's part of normal psychological functions. And there's nothing we can do about it, other than keep it in our heads instead of saying it aloud and offending people.

That being said, I have seen tons of people (from various communities), who decide a certain look, style, behavior, hobby, etc... is trendy and cool. So they get the right clothes, and hang out at the right places (or what they think are the right places), and never bother to actually learn anything about the community or genuinely be engaged in it, or genuinely enjoy it. They simply like the image that goes along with it. That's a wannabe. And every group has them.

"Real" and "true" are more open to interpreation. Everyone's definition of those words are different. For me, real and true are more about intention/interest/fee ling, not actions. For example, I wouldn't say that someone isn't a real punk music fan just because they don't run around with a mohawk or whatever is considered the sign of someone who is "punk" these days. If you enjoy something, you know about it, you understand it, you participate in it, and you do it solely for your enjoyment and not because anyone else wants you to, or for the sake of your image, then you are real and true and have nothing to worry about.

And if you are doing stuff for other people or to look cool, then you need to forget about it, and find something that will actually make you happy.

02/08/2010

Carrie Ann

Quote:

Originally posted by J's Alley

*blink*

02/08/2010

Owl Identified

Quote:

Originally posted by J's Alley

For the record, there's a pretty clear definition of what a slave is, and I have never encountered a single person in the BDSM "community" that meets it. I honestly think the label 'slave' is a little ridiculous and shows just how privileged and out of touch people in the west can be. I know people that are really into that title and whatever, that's their priority, but I think it's pretty silly. The whole "property" thing is ridiculous too. Talk to someone abducted from their family before they even hit puberty, shipped half way around the world to a country where they can't speak the language, and held against their will as a sexual slave. THAT is a real slave. Everything else is a cruel mockery.

02/08/2010

Sir

The only word that I find offensive is "wannabe." That is simply childish and unnecessary. If you do not like how someone does BDSM, then do not associate with them, period. If you find it to be "fake" or offensive, then again, don't associate with them. It's better to keep yourself out of a situation, I find, than to make yourself look like an idiot by calling people such things. Like Sex, Lies & Pre-Law said: there are much better things to do!

02/08/2010

Domineight

We all judge and are prone to being defensive of the things we hold dear, especially since for many people into BDSM it took a while to fully feel right in our own skin or comfortable with our role and non-traditional interests.

That said...it took many of us a while to fully feel right in our own skin or comfortable with our role and non-traditional interests. And in that time many people might have called us a wannabe or fake.

So its hard to say. I don't think using those terms is the end of the world but I certainly see it abused to feel a sense of superiority, even by myself at times.

02/08/2010

P'Gell

The article was cute and amusing. However, I agree that labeling helps no one. What two (or three or four or more) people do in the privacy of their own bedroom/dungeon/attic/ wherever is not my business to either judge or label.

My play is likewise not for others to judge or label. The only time someone is "doing sex wrong" is when they aren't having fun. Other than that, it's up the individual.

I can't see how labeling or a member of one couple/unit attempting to tell a member of a different relationship, "You aren't doing this right. I however, am the Authority and what I do is the right way to do these things." is helpful, supportive or even a reason why someone would want to say or even feel this about an other person's Play Time Activities.

09/12/2010

NightNight

Quote:

Originally posted by Adriana Ravenlust

I had this problem when I was trying to make a title for a thread i started yesterday.

I wanted to differentiate between "healthy" sadism and "unhealthy" sadism, the difference between the kinky use of the word and the medical use. I ended up going with "real" and "pretend" and just hoped people would understand the distinction I was making was assuming sadism-the-medical-con dition as a base. So actually I made the exact opposite assumption of what you did! This is where labels fail.

09/12/2010

Dusk

As someone who recently discovered that the BDSM community exists (and here in San Francisco, it's a very *strong* community) I would find these words extremely hurtful. It's hard enough being 'new' to the scene and wondering if you're really kinky enough to be there. I struggled for a while, thinking that because I wasn't into the same things as others I didn't really belong. If anyone had once told me that I wasn't a "real" or "true" bottom because I don't always submit to my top, or that I'm a "wannabe" kinkster, I think I would have just gone home and never wanted to talk to another member of the community again. Instead, I was reassured that everyone has their own tastes, and really brought into the community as one of their own. As a result, I've really broken out of my shell and learned a lot about BDSM that I wasn't exposed to before.

I know we all do it, but I still think it's important not to label people before you've heard their experiences.

12/13/2010

Emma (Girl With Fire)

Weirdo.

I find that the terms are most often used in relationship to people who are new to something. It is a really good way to make even people who are interested in something, (BDSM related or not) to back away, and in many cases to regard people in those circles in a negative light. I hate it when shit gets Cliquey. Whatever it is. Cliques are stupid.
,
The only time that people trying to hard and looking stupid bothers me, is when they are doing something purely to look/be cool, and not because it is an actual interest of theirs.

People will always judge. I think it's best to try and be respectful when you talk to people. If you have to share your judgement with a person, try to do it in a way that is not insulting.

12/25/2010

PussyGalore

Quote:

Originally posted by Emma (Girl With Fire)

As you call her a weirdo...

12/25/2010

Persephone Nightmare

Personally, I find the whole, "Oh, you're a wannabe when it comes to BDSM" or, "You're not a *real* *insert BDSM role here*" is completely childish and honestly off-putting. Even when not in the context of BDSM, it's still just very rude and I personally don't like it.

I see the BDSM lifestyle kind of like how Wicca is. In Wicca there is no set religious dogma, and what you believe is what you believe without anyone saying, "Oh, you have to believe *this*, and do things *this* way" (Excluding very few things, such as the Rede, which says "Harm None" for example, as that is generally accepted by many of the Wiccan faith).

Basically, that there is more than one way of going about things and that there is no one "right" way.

In the case of the BDSM lifestyle, I believe that one should do what works best for them and do what is enjoyable for all parties involved. And that they should be allowed to do what works best for the people in question, without someone telling them they're not a "real" Dom/Master/Sub/Slave/e tc (excluding, say, the Safe, Sane, and Consensual rule, as such is very important for everyone's safety).

Some may say that Synthetik and I are "wannabes", because he doesn't (thusfar) control my finances for example, or because for the most part he lets me make alot of my own decisions, and other things.

But what I think matters more than what someone thinks about our relationship, is that to me, the BDSM aspect is real, it is true, and it's certainly not "wannabe-ish". Albeit, it's not how alot of people go about it, and who knows, in the future we may not even go about it the same way, but the fact of the matter is that whatever the case, he and I will do what works best for us, regardless of what anyone else has to say about it.

And as for the, "Everyone Judges" bit. Yes, technically we all judge people, as humans it's natural for us to do so. We're wired to assess people, things, and situations from how they appear to us, even before knowing the entire story of the person, thing, or situation.

***HOWEVER*** It is when that judging affects how you treat someone (before knowing all the facts) that it becomes an issue and a problem.

I agree with P'Gell 100% when she wrote:

"My play is likewise not for others to judge or label. The only time someone is "doing sex wrong" is when they aren't having fun. Other than that, it's up the individual."

(Yay for textwalls, lol)

12/26/2010

KnK

I think people can be overly sensitive about the BDSM lifestyle in general. Yes, you should be respectful, but hey not everyone's going to agree.

Also, sometimes even people within the community can think that certain kinks are weird or may express that they simply cannot find that arousing, but maintain that it's okay for others to feel that way. It's fine to have differing opinions, but just don't be an asshole, and that means every side involved.

01/26/2011

Woman China

Real. Fake. Wannabe.

What exactly does all this stuff mean? And what exactly does it mean to you?

That is the hard part of the whole topic of conversation. To me... I am a real woman because I have a vagina, breasts etc... but to the man who feels that he is a real woman on the inside as that is how he identifies himself... who is more of the real woman? To be honest? I've no clue. In my opinion, he is just as real as I am. 'Cause I hate high heels.

Now let's talk fake. There are things we all fake and do not even realise we are doing it at that moment in time. So who is to say anyone is really real? Hell, I am surrounded by "fake" people. And in my opinion; fake is when you think one thing and do another. The entire country is like this. Hell... most everyone I know is like this. What's the point in being upset when it comes to this comment? (I fall into this group too at times!!)

Wannabe... my mind is suddenly blank as to what I was going to say about this...

Bottom line... who the heck cares what people are saying? People talk clap trap all the time about everything. If you let it bother you... does that not just mean you need thicker skin?

02/16/2011

Apirka

I think we should just drop the labels and let everyone do their own thing.

01/12/2012

Total posts: 40 Unique posters: 33

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