Should Transgender People be Able to Change the Sex on Their Birth Certificates? - Created by NuMe on Apr 04, 2011: EdenFantasys Forum

aliceinthehole

in my opinion, transgender issues re-introduce gender as a non-issue, and raise an idea of nongenderism. in this case, it doesnt really matter what gender one is, so if one would like to change their birth certificate to reflect a different gender, i don't see what the big deal is.

i'm really apathetic about it.

it doesn't matter.

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06/30/2011

RonLee

I can see value in both sides of this.
However, IF changing one's Birth Certificate can help expedite a TS/TG person's transition, then I'm ALL FOR IT.

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06/30/2011

moose1120

Permit birth certificate changes, with the resulting certificate showing that it was amended. Many issuing jurisdictions do this for a number of reasons, including misspellings or court ordered additions of parents, etc.

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07/04/2011

K101

I agree. I don't think it should be changed. Now, I'm not saying that to be mean or to be against those who feel differently. I just don't think it should be changed. That is my opinion, I won't go into details.

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07/14/2011

Ivy Wilde

Quote:

Originally posted by LicentiouslyYours

People who are adopted have their birth certificates changed to reflect the adoptive parents as their birth parents, erasing the record of who is actually the biological parent. This has been an established practice for decades ( I can only speak to ... more

I was adopted. My birth certificate lists the woman who adopted me as my mother and the man who adopted me as my father. For that reason, I consider this birth certificate FAKE. These people are not my biological parents. The person listed as my mother DID NOT give birth to me.

I know that especially for babies who are adopted and whose adoptive parents don't want to ever let the kid know, it is a necessary fiction. But it creates problems. Mainly with medical records. My adoptive parents medical histories are a nightmare. I'm glad I don't have that genetic history. But that's beside the point.

Even though my birth certificate is legal and all that, in my mind it will always be fake. It's telling a lie, a legal lie, but a lie nonetheless.

I think it would be same for changing the sex someone was born with. I think that they have every right to live as the gender that they identify with. But that doesn't change the fact that they were born with a certain set of physical attributes. Changing what is listed on their birth certificate would be a lie.

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07/14/2011

Ivy Wilde

Quote:

Originally posted by Champagne and Benzedrine (Roland Hulme)

I've learned a lot from hearing people's opinions - one of the biggest things being an increasing feeling that the birth certificate is an inadequate document for what it's being asked to deliver on. I view it as a static record of ... more

I obviously agree with you that a birth certificate should be an accurate representation of the "birth" of the child, including who actually gave birth to them. At least the mother should be accurately listed. I can understand that in certain situations, who to list as the father could be confusing. But a birth certificate is supposed to accurately state when the child was born, who the birth parents were and what physical sex the child was born with. That is why it is called a BIRTH certificate. I understand that in some cases, physical sex might be hard to determine. In which case that should either be left blank until sex is accurately determined, or there should be a way to list that physical sex was not readily apparent at birth.

I like the idea of a Certificate of Identity that would be a more flexible legal document, and would allow adoptive parents to be listed as the "real" parents of the kids they raised. (And I do consider my adoptive parents my "real" parents; I just think that listing them as my "birth" parents is a flat out lie.) A Certificate of Identity could also allow for transgendered people to claim the gender that they live as, not necessarily the sex they were born with.

But in my opinion, a birth certificate should be an accurate historical document. Not subject to revision. I can understand the reasons that people might want to change their personal history, but that would be just as much a lie as saying that there was never any slavery in the US because we wish it had never been practiced here.

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07/14/2011

Ivy Wilde

Quote:

Originally posted by Rockin'

"What would society be like without the ability to concretely identify a person as male or female?"

I think society might be a whole lot better.

Sex is a biological classification and properly identifying one's sex serves a useful purpose, especially when one is going in to have surgery done. So having an accurate record of one's biological sex, even if that sex might not be the standard male or female, but some new word that describes those who were born sexually ambiguous,(There might be such a word, but I don't know it.) is an important record to have.

I do agree that people should be allowed to live as whatever gender they prefer, but biologically, the majority of us were born either male or female and for practical purposes, there should be an accurate record maintained that shows what physical sexual attributes we have, internally as well as externally.

BTW, just how often are babies born who are not readily identifiable as male or female, anyway? There should definitely be a way to classify them for what they are rather than randomly labeling them male or female, but how often would that classification be needed?

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07/14/2011

Ivy Wilde

Quote:

Originally posted by Sex'и'Violence

I don't think that birth certificates should be able to be altered for this purpose. That being said I don't think they should be altered for the purpose of adoption either. Rewriting/altering history on a whim is a slippery and dangerous slope.

I obviously agree.

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07/14/2011

Rage Demon

Being Transgender myself, I believe people like myself should be able to change the sex on our birth certificates, but of course only after having SRS (sexual reassignment surgery) done. I've never viewed myself as being female, even though that is the sex I was born as. But I feel changing the sex on the birth certificate is a way to "finalize" the change once the transformation after surgery is complete. I plan on having it changed along with a name change after everything is said and done. That is just my view on things, some might not choose to go that way but we all follow what we believe to be best for ourselves.

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07/15/2011

AriBoi

Quote:

Originally posted by removedacnt

On SexIs today, Roland Hulme wrote an article titled "Devil's Advocate: Birth Certificates and Transgender"

His postion...."But I do not agree with letting them change the listing on their birth certificate ... more

I am an FTM guy, and I strongly believe that either that piece of information be completely left out from Birth Certificates, or be allowed to change. If for "medical history" purposes they wanted to, I think it'd be fine to keep a record of the change somewhere locked away - but not have that be visible on the Birth Certificate you present to others.

I'm from a small European country where the Birth Certificate is one of the more commonly used documents - whenever you get other documents, enroll in a school, apply for a job, etc. you have to present the Birth Certificate. Having your "birth sex" on there (here they list your "new" sex if you've had SRS, but with a note that you have undergone a "sex change") - it opens you up to so much vulnerability. People might even unconsciously (and more often quite consciously) choose a slightly less qualified candidate for a job over someone they know is trans, simply because they are trans. Because of this, it shouldn't be on such an important document. If they wanna keep some "original" copy in their records - fine, but for ALL my "living" purposes - give me my true sex - the one I AM - not what I happened to be born as. I'm a boy, and nothing's gonna change that. Having male physical characteristics instead of female would make life hell of a lot easier and just... in sync. Getting there is enough of a hurdle. I don't need discrimination and trouble because of bureaucracy as well.

It just hurts that people don't think of what implications their opinions (if enforced as law) would have on people's lives. How much it would complicate things unnecessarily. And why? Out of bureaucratic principle. Shouldn't people's lives/well-being be more important? And if possible - why not accomplish both (keep the info somewhere on record, available only as historical medical information, but not on documents that are to be issued)? Is that really too much to ask?

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07/16/2011

mmichaud87

Quote:

Originally posted by removedacnt

On SexIs today, Roland Hulme wrote an article titled "Devil's Advocate: Birth Certificates and Transgender"

His postion...."But I do not agree with letting them change the listing on their birth certificate ... more

Being trans myself, it would be extremely helpful for me to be able to change the marker on my BC. I disagree with his view on the matter. There is so much red tape and hoops to jump through for trans people as is. Thankfully in my state, all I have to do it have top surgery(even though it's not that simple) in order to change my marker. I already was able to change the marker on my ID.

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07/27/2011

GenderSexplorations

Birth certificates should definitely be amendable. It's unreasonable to expect that there could never be a mistake or mis-perception of a person's gender at birth. It's unreasonable to invalidate trans-people and intersex people. It's unreasonable to say that the decision of one person to say 'boy' or 'girl' should impact your life so thoroughly.

People keep saying that 'sex is a biological characteristic' as if it's something black or white. But it's not, honestly. We have intersex people with varied combinations of male and female genitalia. We have people with many different combinations of sex chromosomes, there are XX, XY, XXY, XYY, and any other combinations! If one of these people is assigned based off of a cursory glance at a small area of the body, why should they have to live their lives with that one person's decision? Why have a document of IDENTIFICATION stating something other than their identity?

Not to mention that there has been research that indicates that the brain structure of a transgender person is often equal or closer to that of the gender that they transition TO, rather than their birth-assigned sex, even before hormones or surgeries. So if you want to be 'biological', why not go with the biology of the brain anatomy? Who decided that the only anatomy that matters in determining 'biological sex' is that below the waist above the thighs? Our sex is not only present in our genitalia. Our brains have gendered structures as well. Our brains are where we think from and what we use to interact with the world, so isn't that the more important location to look to?

More importantly, genital sex is relatively irrelevant anyway! Gender is the only thing that matters. Our gender dictates what part we feel comfortable playing in society. To say that a person's birth sex should be shoved in their face any time they need their birth certificate is invalidating to the very soul and mind of a trans-person. So shouldn't they be able to change their birth certificate to match who they are? Who they feel they are?

In summary, yes birth certificates should be amendable. Because, in life, it's our gender that matters, how society perceives us, not what's between our legs. And a birth certificate is a statement that you are in fact alive and have a life. So why shouldn't it say the right life?

...If any of that made any sense.

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08/15/2011

gone77

Quote:

Originally posted by GenderSexplorations

Birth certificates should definitely be amendable. It's unreasonable to expect that there could never be a mistake or mis-perception of a person's gender at birth. It's unreasonable to invalidate trans-people and intersex people. It's ... more

Birth certificates should definitely be amendable. It's unreasonable to expect that there could never be a mistake or mis-perception of a person's gender at birth. It's unreasonable to invalidate trans-people and intersex people. It's unreasonable to say that the decision of one person to say 'boy' or 'girl' should impact your life so thoroughly.

People keep saying that 'sex is a biological characteristic' as if it's something black or white. But it's not, honestly. We have intersex people with varied combinations of male and female genitalia. We have people with many different combinations of sex chromosomes, there are XX, XY, XXY, XYY, and any other combinations! If one of these people is assigned based off of a cursory glance at a small area of the body, why should they have to live their lives with that one person's decision? Why have a document of IDENTIFICATION stating something other than their identity?

Not to mention that there has been research that indicates that the brain structure of a transgender person is often equal or closer to that of the gender that they transition TO, rather than their birth-assigned sex, even before hormones or surgeries. So if you want to be 'biological', why not go with the biology of the brain anatomy? Who decided that the only anatomy that matters in determining 'biological sex' is that below the waist above the thighs? Our sex is not only present in our genitalia. Our brains have gendered structures as well. Our brains are where we think from and what we use to interact with the world, so isn't that the more important location to look to?

More importantly, genital sex is relatively irrelevant anyway! Gender is the only thing that matters. Our gender dictates what part we feel comfortable playing in society. To say that a person's birth sex should be shoved in their face any time they need their birth certificate is invalidating to the very soul and mind of a trans-person. So shouldn't they be able to change their birth certificate to match who they are? Who they feel they are?

In summary, yes birth certificates should be amendable. Because, in life, it's our gender that matters, how society perceives us, not what's between our legs. And a birth certificate is a statement that you are in fact alive and have a life. So why shouldn't it say the right life?

...If any of that made any sense. less

Great post. You make a lot of great points & have given me lots to think about. Thank you so much for taking the time to post here.

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08/15/2011

GenderSexplorations

Quote:

Originally posted by gone77

Great post. You make a lot of great points & have given me lots to think about. Thank you so much for taking the time to post here.

I'm definitely one of the more wordy people out there. But thanks, heh! Sometimes I think I spend way too much time on explaining my opinion.

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08/15/2011

Diabolical Kitty

Having a fiance who is transgendered this hits close to home for me. I think that the transgendered should be able to go back and change their birth certificates. Sometimes they are born in the wrong body. So, why can't they change their birth certificates to reflect the right way they should be?

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08/15/2011

Darling Jen

Quote:

Originally posted by GenderSexplorations

Birth certificates should definitely be amendable. It's unreasonable to expect that there could never be a mistake or mis-perception of a person's gender at birth. It's unreasonable to invalidate trans-people and intersex people. It's ... more

Birth certificates should definitely be amendable. It's unreasonable to expect that there could never be a mistake or mis-perception of a person's gender at birth. It's unreasonable to invalidate trans-people and intersex people. It's unreasonable to say that the decision of one person to say 'boy' or 'girl' should impact your life so thoroughly.

People keep saying that 'sex is a biological characteristic' as if it's something black or white. But it's not, honestly. We have intersex people with varied combinations of male and female genitalia. We have people with many different combinations of sex chromosomes, there are XX, XY, XXY, XYY, and any other combinations! If one of these people is assigned based off of a cursory glance at a small area of the body, why should they have to live their lives with that one person's decision? Why have a document of IDENTIFICATION stating something other than their identity?

Not to mention that there has been research that indicates that the brain structure of a transgender person is often equal or closer to that of the gender that they transition TO, rather than their birth-assigned sex, even before hormones or surgeries. So if you want to be 'biological', why not go with the biology of the brain anatomy? Who decided that the only anatomy that matters in determining 'biological sex' is that below the waist above the thighs? Our sex is not only present in our genitalia. Our brains have gendered structures as well. Our brains are where we think from and what we use to interact with the world, so isn't that the more important location to look to?

More importantly, genital sex is relatively irrelevant anyway! Gender is the only thing that matters. Our gender dictates what part we feel comfortable playing in society. To say that a person's birth sex should be shoved in their face any time they need their birth certificate is invalidating to the very soul and mind of a trans-person. So shouldn't they be able to change their birth certificate to match who they are? Who they feel they are?

In summary, yes birth certificates should be amendable. Because, in life, it's our gender that matters, how society perceives us, not what's between our legs. And a birth certificate is a statement that you are in fact alive and have a life. So why shouldn't it say the right life?

...If any of that made any sense. less

So much ditto to this. Beautifully said. Our idea of categorizing into two neat groups is ridiculous when there are so many exceptions. How many exceptions do there need to be before we just stop limiting ourselves to two groups anyway???

Besides, there is no intrinsic value to a piece of paper anyway. Those who are so concerned about "re-writing history" are placing more meaning in our tendency to label and sort than there should be. What seems "important" to us right now in the form of documentation is just kindling for fire in other cultures and has no value or purpose whatsoever.

But I think I super duper liked Sir's opinion (and I'm paraphrasing): If it doesn't affect you directly, then don't dictate what does hold meaning to others.

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08/15/2011

cameronfeidh

Quote:

Originally posted by removedacnt

On SexIs today, Roland Hulme wrote an article titled "Devil's Advocate: Birth Certificates and Transgender"

His postion...."But I do not agree with letting them change the listing on their birth certificate ... more

Completely disagree. It's a legal issue as well as a medical one; being 'outed' by your birth certificate is a very humiliating and hurtful experience. Still being listed as your AAB gender can also deny you certain benefits such as marriage and entry into gender-restricted areas. Also, having your birth gender on your birth certificate keeps you from getting your gender changed to the right gender on any ID, so you would constantly be 'outed' by that as well, which is hurtful and dysphoria-inducing. So no. 'Changing history' doesn't matter. Making a trans*person comfortable matters.

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10/03/2011

JRabbits

I don't think they should be allowed to do this. If you're born a boy, you were born a boy. If you were born a girl you were born a girl. Just because you go through the stages of a change from one sex to the other doesn't mean those doctors were "wrong" with their first ruling on what they had delivered. It doesn't mean you're still a boy or girl when you have the change but you were at one point, and no amount of changing will change that fact. Just because you have that paper changed won't mean its not on record somewhere else that you were originally a boy or girl. Trust me, the goverment will always have that on record, and no amount of whiteout will change that on paper.

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10/03/2011

chenault

Quote:

Originally posted by cameronfeidh

Completely disagree. It's a legal issue as well as a medical one; being 'outed' by your birth certificate is a very humiliating and hurtful experience. Still being listed as your AAB gender can also deny you certain benefits such as ... more

This! I just cannot believe that anyone could honestly think that keeping historical records fixed and constant and data shoved into nice neat categories is more important than the safety and comfort of, you know, actual people. Being outed isn't just humiliating, it's potentially very dangerous

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10/04/2011

carenautilus

Quote:

Originally posted by Gogojojo

I would add that (after skimming the article) I disagree with the author's positions the birth certificate as a definitive record of a person's sex history. I would suggest reading the work of Anne Fausto-Sterling Sexing the Body to see a ... more

I cannot agree hard enough!

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10/04/2011

Eucaly

One of the issues this brings up is that birth certificates really do need an "indeterminate" (or some similar term) in the "sex" category for obviously intersex babies.

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10/04/2011

Ciao.

I missed this article the first time it came around, but I feel it is definitely worth commenting on.

First, I think at least for now trans* people should have every right to change their birth certificates. For the sake of being able to obtain other documents to reflect their gender, not being questioned and outed at embarrassing moments, and simply being treated in a dignified manner...I think the allowance of these changes is necessary.

A few of the responses here, as well as the article, point out that the doctor's didn't necessarily make a mistake in sexing the child as male or female, but that misses a few key points. Naturally there are intersex children, which throw a wrench into the whole male/female checkbox system, and then there is the question of what exactly defines sex. Do you want to go with a visual observation? Do you do further investigations to determine what reproductive organs are present? Are you going to test the child's chromosomes? What about XXY individuals?

It's not a simple system, even if the simple solution we use now works for the vast majority of people.

But the real question I have for people who oppose a trans* person's decision to change their birth certificate is why it matters?

It is not like someone is maliciously falsifying information for personal gain, they just want documents and the government, employers, etc. to regard them as they see themselves. In an ideal world the sex on your birth certificate shouldn't matter at all for anything other than medical history purposes and generalized statistics, but whether we like it or not, it does now...and in my mind that makes being able to change it a necessity.

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10/04/2011

Rawhide

Gender is determined by the brain, not the genitals.

Therefore, a transgender person who changes the gender on their birth certificate to reflect their identity is not going back and "changing history". They are correcting a mistake. When they were born, everyone interpreted their gender based on their genitals. Because the vast majority of the population is cisgendered, this is a reliable indicator, but not for all. Once someone has identified that their gender and their genitals do not match, I think it is perfectly reasonable that they go back and correct the mistake made on their birth certificate. The gender they change it to was their gender all along.

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10/04/2011

carenautilus

Quote:

Originally posted by Ciao.

I missed this article the first time it came around, but I feel it is definitely worth commenting on.

First, I think at least for now trans* people should have every right to change their birth certificates. For the sake of being able to ... more

Very good point -- trans* people aren't trying to change their birth certificates (and other documents) to make a fast buck. It's unbelievably horrible the trans* people are subjected to constant judgement about the validity of their identity.

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10/04/2011

KrazyKandy

I feel like you should no be able to change it because it was the way you were born.

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10/04/2011

M121212

That's an interesting question. On one hand people can and do fully adopt genders that they are not born with. On the other hand if we're talking about emergency situations where people have to be identified partly based on their bodies or in medical situations it's really useful to have accurate information. This makes me lean towards having an FTM gender on birth certificates or even simply Trans. I know that our society's not really ready to adopt that as a legit gender, perhaps. And not being trans myself I don't know if that would be horribly awkward or rude.

Medical and emergency situations aside, and regarding simply the realm of identity, I think that people should be able to declare their own gender as they damn well please.

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10/04/2011

chenault

Quote:

Originally posted by M121212

That's an interesting question. On one hand people can and do fully adopt genders that they are not born with. On the other hand if we're talking about emergency situations where people have to be identified partly based on their bodies or in ... more

Re: paramedics: there was a well-known case in 1995 of a woman who was involved in a car accident dying after paramedics withdrew treatment when they discovered she was trans, and ER staff at the hospital she wound up in provided inadequate care for the same reason. Trans* folks are still frequently reluctant to seek medical care for reasons along the lines of that incident. I think there's a lot more needed there to ensure adequate care for trans* folks than just the patient's complete medical history.

And often, in medical situations, if you have to go with either F or M, in the case of people who've transitioned, the marker indicating the gender they identify as is more medically accurate and useful.

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10/05/2011

emilia

I just not sure I think they may need to change it for them to feel the change is done with.

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10/13/2011

Rhazya

I would say it's a birth certificate, so it should stay your gender at birth. It's not called a "current status certificate" so I would say no on going back and changing it. With that being said, I think it should be against the law to block someone from say a job position, due to being transgendered.

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10/18/2011

catsin

Quote:

Originally posted by El-Jaro

I completely agree with him in this article. Being sensitive to people around you and staying sex positive is one thing, going back and changing history is another.

His British/American comparison was spot on!

I dunno about that... "changing history" is more abstract of a concept than people often consider.

I'm adopted and as such my birth certificate states that my parents are my adoptive parents and that my birthday is 8 days after my true birthday. Does that count as "changing history"? I must say, I was incredibly upset to learn about my birthday having been legally changed like that, unfortunately, this is something that society accepts as "appropriate".

So in the question of whether it ought to be changed or not, I think we should consider ANY changes to the record, not just sex. If they can change my parents names and my birthdate, there should be NO qualms over changing a person's sex.

It's unfair in either regard.

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04/23/2012