Should Routine Circumcision of Male Infants be Illegal?

Contributor: Liz123 Liz123
Definately should be a choice.
02/10/2012
Contributor: Eliyahu Eliyahu
Both of my boys were bris'd by a physician mohel, and neither screamed once during it. And yes, I was right there with them, each time. Neither had problems with continued breast feeding afterward, either...though they were home/water births, and both latched within a minute or so of actual birth.
02/22/2012
Contributor: Nazaress Nazaress
Before I came to this thread, I was uneducated about circumcision and I had a mindset of "for it if you want, not if you don't". Now, however, I am against it (especially after having read P'Gell's posts). I had no idea it was so painful for the baby and that they didn't even numb the pain beyond Tylenol. I had always heard it was cleaner to not have foreskin but now I see that's pretty much bull. If I have a son, he will keep his foreskin unless he, at an old enough age, decides he doesn't want it.

But personally, I don't even want kids. Lol.
02/22/2012
Contributor: jenny10 jenny10
As far as the reasoning that it is child abuse because there is bi anestesia isn't completely true. A new born child has not yet formed all the complete wiring in their brains needed to accurately "feel" pain. Yes, cutting them may cause them some amount of pain, but not to the degree it would cause a grown man to have his forskin cut. Also, infants heal much much faster than adolescents, another reason it is traditionally done at an early Age. So yes it may cause the baby to flip out and scream but so does giving them an inoculation through a needle, and heck sometimes just changing their diaper lol no need to criminalize that based on the amount of pain we think they feel.
02/23/2012
Contributor: indiglo indiglo
Quote:
Originally posted by jenny10
As far as the reasoning that it is child abuse because there is bi anestesia isn't completely true. A new born child has not yet formed all the complete wiring in their brains needed to accurately "feel" pain. Yes, cutting them may ... more
"So yes it may cause the baby to flip out and scream but so does giving them an inoculation through a needle, and heck sometimes just changing their diaper lol no need to criminalize that based on the amount of pain we think they feel."


But, vaccinating children and babies protects them against diseases and illnesses that can be fatal. Vaccinating can therefore be considered a lifesaving procedure. Changing a diaper is also mandatory, or illnesses and infection can ensue. Circumcision is neither lifesaving, nor does it protect from illness or infection.

A lifesaving surgery causes pain during recovery, yes. But the pain is worth it because your life was saved. So you see, there's a difference. Circumcision (and the pain and discomfort caused by it) cannot logically be compared to vaccinating or diaper changing because there is no medical reason to circumcise, but there is a medical reason to vaccinate and change diapers.
02/23/2012
Contributor: bsgs bsgs
i am, we had our two boys circumcised too, there is the whole cleanliness thing, but we didnt want them to be 'that guy' when they got older. i know its more common now to be uncircumcised, but still, we didnt want them to have to be ridiculed when they got older for having it look weird
02/23/2012
Contributor: P'Gell P'Gell
Quote:
Originally posted by jenny10
As far as the reasoning that it is child abuse because there is bi anestesia isn't completely true. A new born child has not yet formed all the complete wiring in their brains needed to accurately "feel" pain. Yes, cutting them may ... more
I'm sorry, but the outdated and disproven idea that infants "don't feel pain because their brains aren't mature" is completely untrue. Most studies have shown newborns feel pain MORE intensely than adults do!

I'm a nurse, a Lactation Consultant and a Post Partum Doula and I've read all the data and spent most of my life around children, and caring for children in and out of medical environments, thousands of them. THEY FEEL PAIN AS INTENSELY AS YOU DO!

A needle stick is nothing like having two thirds of the skin of your penis hacked off!!!! As for diaper changes, babies feel cold and also feel insecure when naked as newborns. There is a HUGE difference between a FEAR cry (from diaper changes) and a PAIN cry (from genital mutilation.)

Circumcision hurts a newborn just as much as it hurts a grown man.

Saying "babies don't feel pain" is simply untrue, and all the newest research attests to this. They feel pain as much or more as adults do.

Jeez, in this day and age.......
02/23/2012
Contributor: funny4now funny4now
I believe it should be left up to the parents of the infant and while it is painful and the boys may bleed (not too much) it is not intended to mutilate and does no lasting harm as female mutilation does. It is also healthier for men.
02/24/2012
Contributor: kawigrl kawigrl
I think it's fine
02/24/2012
Contributor: bayosgirl bayosgirl
Quote:
Originally posted by Badass
i personally have nothing against christianity... but this whole concept of circumcision came from dudes running around in the desert drinking wine... 2000 years ago-ish..

perhaps its time we come up with some weird new rules.
Circumcision is NOT a Christian practice; it actually hails from the Old Testament (i.e. Judaism.) Jesus' coming to earth did away with Mosaic law, including circumcision.
03/08/2012
Contributor: Silverdrop Silverdrop
I don't really understand the cleanliness argument. Teeth are far harder to keep clean. Why not pre-emptively extract them? It'd save all sorts of health complications.
03/08/2012
Contributor: John E W John E W
Well I still got my forskin. Was taught to WASH it properly and I had wanted it removed at one time and my family doctor would not do so unless it was necessary. I read up on it and did a little research and discovered that it's supposed to be more pleasant for women if the man still has his forskin. And more sensitive for the man as the head of his penis is not calluses from usage.
03/08/2012
Contributor: Chirple Chirple
I am not against the practice, but it should be the choice of a consenting adult over their own body.

Parents should not practice aesthetic body modification on their children for whatever reason.
03/09/2012
Contributor: Woman China Woman China
I remember reading a thread here in EF about labiaplasty and how many people were against it. My want for cutting off- rather a better way to explain it, trimming my labia down to make it more appealing and less problematic for me seems to bring a controversial discussion from both men and women. And not just here at EF but on other Forums as well.

The biggest difference is, I am thirty-one years old. I can make my own decision to keep or to trim back my labia. A child cannot. What would society say if parents would trim back an infant girls labia?

I don't think circumcision should be illegal. I think infant circumcision should be prohibited until the child is old enough to make an informed decision; religious or not. For people who feel that infant boys should be circumcised, it is a cosmetic procedure.

I personally do not beleive that religious body modification should be performed on children. THAT should be against the law. When that child is of an age where they can make an informed decision, then I say let them decide.

Parents might be the parents of their child but I do not feel they have the 'right' to make this decision for them. I've inspected my body, and I've had someone inspect my body inside and out. And nowhere on my body does it say, "Property of WomanChina's Mom and Dad" I don't see an ISBN code. Parents don't want their child to get a tattoo till they are of an age where they (might) can think of the consequences of such a permanent reminder of years gone by. Or a nose ring. Or a tongue ring. Ultimately; if they child/teenager wants the ring, tattoo there are ways to get it done. And if they child/teenager wants to get circumcised, it really should be left up to the owner of the penis. And not the proxy's or regents of it.
03/09/2012
Contributor: Entropy Entropy
Eh...it's not a law right now, so parents can opt to or not to have a circumcision performed on their son, and I think that people can choose for themselves. There isn't a lot of current medical data that supports routine circumcision, but it's not (in except for very rare and infrequent cases) a source of bodily harm, and it is a cultural practice for some people. I'm not Jewish, but I'm cut, and I'm glad that I am. Foreskin is an extra source for potential infection and I don't like the way it looks. Outlawing seems very extreme. Mutilation is a very (and frankly too) strong of a word to use about circumcision, IMO.
03/09/2012
Contributor: Djiffy Djiffy
I don't condone genital mutilation for reasons aside from medical necessity. I hope I see the day that circumcision is banned, though I know that realistically it won't happen any time soon. Laws are, unfortunately, too heavily influenced by the majority's religious norms and traditions, regardless of how stupid and injurious those traditions are. There would be countless protests and cries of religious persecution from people of Judeo-Christian backgrounds if they weren't allowed to circumcise their children.
03/09/2012
Contributor: Lilith Bealove Lilith Bealove
I am not voting on this, not reading the replies, and probably after posting this, not coming back. Female circ's are to make sex painful so the woman will not cheat on future hubby. Males circ's are to prevent infection. Ask ANY man if at 8 years old they properly washed anything! They will say no, unless they lie. I have had many cousins get circ'ed at all different kind of ages in the single digits because they got an infection. I even know a few men in their 60's and up who have to get circ'ed bc of an infection. At 5, 6, 7, 8, etc it is more traumatic because they are older and can remember.

That being said, I had my son circ'ed. Why? To prevent having him circ'ed when I tell him to go bathe at 8 and he doesn't do it right. And because he is MY son. If you don't get yours circ'ed, I respect your decision bc that is YOUR son. And bc there is actually a medical reason, whereas with female circ's it's to make sex painful.
03/09/2012
Contributor: Khanner Khanner
I think I should mention that FGM is not entirely analogous to male circumcision because the structures that form the foreskin when a fetus differentiates into a male are NOT analogous to the clitoris. The clitoris is analogous to the ENTIRE penis of a male. (here's a good illustration of how this happens)To measure the impact of FGM in male terms would be to imagine someone cutting off a child's entire penis. The foreskin is more like the clit hood in females. It would be more apt to compare male circumcision to labiaplasty.

That said, could you imagine the uproar if someone wanted to perform labiaplasty on their baby? In any case, it is not the parents' right to decide what to remove from their child's body. I have mixed views about religious rights to circumcise, but it should definitely be discouraged more than it already is.
03/09/2012
Contributor: hyacinthgirl hyacinthgirl
Quote:
Originally posted by bayosgirl
They were going to circ him without your consent?! I'm pretty sure THAT is illegal. Geez.
My nephew was nearly circumcised without his parents permission. They specifically put him on the 'Do Not Circumcise' list, but the tag on his crib fell off. If he wasn't in his mother's room, being nursed, when his scheduled time came, he would have been chopped against the wishes of his parents.

He's 3 now and has no problems, since his parents keep him clean and taught him how to wash himself. Same with his little brother.

For the religious aspect... Abraham got to decide to cut off his foreskin. My own personal opinion, and it may be wrong, since I'm not Jewish, but I think it's a more meaningful covenant to knowingly give up part of your body than to have it taken from you.
03/11/2012
Contributor: destinationtwilight destinationtwilight
Quote:
Originally posted by bayosgirl
This is one topic I feel strongly about. I don't understand why so many babies are circumcised. Everyone is upset about FGM (female genital mutilation), and rightfully so. But how is male circumcision socially acceptable? Essentially it does the ... more
My ex was extremely upset that his parents did not get him one when he was an infant.
03/12/2012
Contributor: dks210 dks210
I'm still kind of on the fence with this topic. Right now, I don't think we need to make it illegal, but we also should not make it something that should be expected for American males.
03/27/2012
Contributor: Petite Valentine Petite Valentine
Quote:
Originally posted by hyacinthgirl
My nephew was nearly circumcised without his parents permission. They specifically put him on the 'Do Not Circumcise' list, but the tag on his crib fell off. If he wasn't in his mother's room, being nursed, when his scheduled time ... more
"For the religious aspect... Abraham got to decide to cut off his foreskin. My own personal opinion, and it may be wrong, since I'm not Jewish, but I think it's a more meaningful covenant to knowingly give up part of your body than to have it taken from you."

Very nicely put.

I thought I'd add this to the conversation: Circumcision Does Not Prevent HPV Infection, RCT Data 'Inflated,' Study Finds
03/27/2012
Contributor: pootpootpoot pootpootpoot
Personally, I believe that it should be up to the parents. I am definitely against pressure to have your baby circumsized, though. When my brother was born, my mother had to constantly tell hospital staff that she did not want him circumsized, despite them putting it in large writing on her chart and the door to her room. They kept trying to talk her into it despite her protestations that she thinks the practice is unnecessary.
04/03/2012
Contributor: Incendiaire Incendiaire
Quote:
Originally posted by Lilith Bealove
I am not voting on this, not reading the replies, and probably after posting this, not coming back. Female circ's are to make sex painful so the woman will not cheat on future hubby. Males circ's are to prevent infection. Ask ANY man if at 8 ... more
You're implying ownership of your son, as if he is a piece of property. He is an autonomous human being, in your temporary custodianship, and should have the right to the integrity of his whole body, so that he can decide what to do with it once he is old enough.
04/03/2012
Contributor: P'Gell P'Gell
Quote:
Originally posted by Petite Valentine
"For the religious aspect... Abraham got to decide to cut off his foreskin. My own personal opinion, and it may be wrong, since I'm not Jewish, but I think it's a more meaningful covenant to knowingly give up part of your body than to ... more
THANK YOU for the link. The flawed data of the STD and circumcision have been quoted ad nauseum and are inaccurate. Circumcision does not "prevent" any STD, nor reduce incidence of it. It would be like cutting off the conch of your ear to "prevent ear infections."

THANK YOU for posting this link. Everybody should read it.
04/03/2012
Contributor: P'Gell P'Gell
Quote:
Originally posted by Khanner
I think I should mention that FGM is not entirely analogous to male circumcision because the structures that form the foreskin when a fetus differentiates into a male are NOT analogous to the clitoris. The clitoris is analogous to the ENTIRE penis of ... more
There are forms of FGM where ONLY the clitoral hood is removed. In these cases it's identical to male circumcision.

Only the most radical (and least used) forms of FGM remove the outer portion of the clitoris, trim or remove and/or sew together the labia. Most FGM is removal of the clitoral hood. Exactly the same structure as the foreskin.
04/03/2012
Contributor: P'Gell P'Gell
Quote:
Originally posted by destinationtwilight
My ex was extremely upset that his parents did not get him one when he was an infant.
I have to ask; Why?

If he wants a circ he can get one now. It wasn't their decision to do this to him without his consent. If he wants to have this procedure done (and risk infection, penis damage and eventual lack of sensitivity when he's older) he can go ahead and have it done.

It's HIS decision, not his parents. They were intelligent and sensitive enough to know they didn't own him.

Now, it's up to him. As it should be.
04/03/2012
Contributor: P'Gell P'Gell
Quote:
Originally posted by Lilith Bealove
I am not voting on this, not reading the replies, and probably after posting this, not coming back. Female circ's are to make sex painful so the woman will not cheat on future hubby. Males circ's are to prevent infection. Ask ANY man if at 8 ... more
Hon, "Many" people you know had to be circed as young children? I work in maternal infant care, virtually NONE of my patients, friends or colleagues have circed their sons, and I see virtually NO infection "washing well at 8 years old) or not.

It's simply proven that circumcision does NOT prevent infection and may actually cause it. My own husband has decreased sensitivity and callouses and even raw spots right where his foreskin would have protected his penis if his parents hadn't had him cut up.

He now wishes it had never been done.

I honestly, working in the field see VERY FEW cases of penile infection that require circumcision. I have no idea why you are seeing so many case in your own family. The need for a circ is rare. UNLESS the doctors in your area are uninformed and will jump on an intact penis for any reason. Other than that, I'm stumped why you would see SO many cases of a rare complication, one which almost always can be cleared up medically (with antibiotics and topically applied cortisone) and not surgically.
04/03/2012
Contributor: Silverdrop Silverdrop
Quote:
Originally posted by Woman China
I remember reading a thread here in EF about labiaplasty and how many people were against it. My want for cutting off- rather a better way to explain it, trimming my labia down to make it more appealing and less problematic for me seems to bring a ... more
Well said. A man or woman who wishes to alter their body has every right to do so. Someone who wishes to alter the body of their child should not be permitted to without a medical reason.

However, I don't think there's any sort of consensus in this country (UK) to ban circumcision (though it's not done routinely here), and that'll be even weaker in the US. So rather than looking at laws, we should be looking at changing the cultural acceptance of it.

Routine circumcision was promoted as a way to prevent boys from masturbating. Yeah... THAT was effective.
04/03/2012
Contributor: jokerzwild jokerzwild
FGM is not even close to circumcision in males, one is damaging one is not. Government has no place in banning this. I find those numbers of % hard to believe growing up I have only met one male that wasn't and he was teased relentlessly.

Is piercing your daughters ears cried out like a crime against humanity? I despise this argument (not this thread. Not to aggregate it but not once in hearing this topic discussed have I ever hear a circumcised male ever discuss government intervention or that it was improper.
04/03/2012